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Member Posts: 3941 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
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Author | Topic: Where should there be "The right to refuse service"? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: And the Bible says that if you break the secular law you deserve what you get.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Then I believe that you are on the wrong side. But since you seem to hate actual Christians I doubt that.
quote: It's true that some of the opponents of gay marriage have threatened all sorts of mayhem, but they are full of bluster and lies. Orson Scott Card has already walked back on his threats of murder. But maybe some really believe that they can start and win a second civil war and impose their tyranny. If THAT happens you can expect to see Christians persecuted. Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: No Faith. Your false claim that beliefs were being criminalised was an attempt to obscure the reality.
quote: There,s no criminalisation of speaking beliefs either. And as the distinction between belief and action is part of the thinking behind the First Amendment - and equating freedom of belief with the right to act on that belief has very obvious problems - there's a valid point there. So all you are offering is a defence of bigotry on the grounds of "tradition". That's not really much of a defence.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: It is a fact that beliefs are not criminalised in the U.S. It is a fact that there are no hate speech laws in the U.S. Any claim to the contrary is NOT factual. Compare the Puritan's persecution of Quakers in Boston. Even when the death penalty was revoked, Quakers were still whipped out of town. You've got nothing like that.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: What I am doing is disagreeing with false claims. As I pointed out outlawing the Quakers could justly be seen as criminalising belief.
quote: But it is not a petty distinction. It is a very big distinction. And one very relevant to your claims of persecution. It is one thing to say that you will be arrested because of your beliefs, it is another to say that you should be able to break any law you like, so long as you have a religious justification. To say that belief is being criminalised is a distortion and correcting that distortion clarifies the issue - as we can clearly see.
quote: If you can show a criminal prosecution in the U.S merely for preaching the Bible I'd like to see it. As for actions, as I've pointed out religious motivation is not a free pass to breaking the law. And in fact, if it had been the original purpose of the laws you are complaining about - ending racial segregation - would have been thoroughly compromised. And stop whining just because your distortion and misrepresentations are being exposed.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: In light of recent posts, this seems relevant:
Exacerbating the problem is impunity in Mexico for religiously motivated crimes. "We know of almost no cases where somebody has been prosecuted for criminal acts in the name of religion," she said. "In Mexico, if you commit a crime, destroy your neighbor's house, and you say it was religious, suddenly it becomes an exempt crime for some reason, [as if they] can't touch that."
Do you agree that this is wrong?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Faith, there is a difference between not following an argument and not believing a pack of lies
The law you object to is the addition of gays to the groups of people protected from discrimination from businesses. That cannot be honestly said to criminalise belief or to target Christians. Indeed, those accusations could more fairly (but still, I believe falsely) be said of the original passage of the laws, when they protected the rights of blacks against the Christian segregationists. Which you have never objected to,
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: You mean it takes a "Christian" to tell such obvious lies.
quote: And it doesn't matter. What I said was still true. New laws, put in place to demand that businesses go against the religious beliefs of many "Christians" like you can more justly be called an attack on their religious freedom than your complaint about the same laws when gays benefit. The idea that Christians should rule over others through lies and hate isn't found in the Bible either - but that is the real crux of this argument.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: I didn't say anything about deserving punishment. But there isn't anything innocent about what you are doing.
quote: Exactly - honesty, a sense of justice and a desire for a good and fair society. The fact that you oppose these - and see Christianity as being fundamentally opposed to them - says a lot about you.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: The only benign force in the game is the secular state which guarantees freedom of religion - and recognises that there is a need to restrict actions, even if they are religiously motivated. And you're attacking it.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
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Banning people from political office for their faith is indeed contrary to the whole idea of freedom of religion. And that is what you have proposed.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
The U.S. Constitution ruled out religious tests for office before the First Amendment.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: I guess that if we had no knowledge of the history that might sound reasonable. But, why would sects persecuted in the original colonies want to be denied a part in the Federal government? How could anyone ignore the role of Enlightenment thinking? Or that the Revolutionaries were fighting for liberty? Or the fact that many of the Founding Fathers were hardly orthodox Christians - including George Washington himself.
quote: Maryland was founded as a refuge for Catholics. It only became ProtestAnt after they made the terrible mistake of inviting the Puritans in. Read up on the history, Faith
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: And yet even your quote from Sam Adams cites Locke. And his view lost.
quote: In reality the secular view won, which is why the Constitution is not a Christian document. And really, how would you construct an idea of "generic Christianity" to exclude Catholics and include Deists? (To go back to Maryland the Catholics passed a law that gave religious freedom to all Christians - including Catholics, of course. The Puritans repealed it. Twice.)
quote: Let us not forget that the Revolutionary War was fought against a Christian country, where the Head of State was the head of the established Church. Or that there were Christians who argued against Government support for religion. You ought to read up on the Virginia [url=www.virginiamemory.com/online_classroom/shaping_the_constitution/doc/religious_freedom]Act for Establishing Religious Freedom[\url] too, especially Madison's Memorial and Remonstrance. And I mean REALLY read up on it. You have an embarrassing habit of missing or ignoring or quickly forgetting anything inconvenient your sources might say.
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