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Author Topic:   Where should there be "The right to refuse service"?
JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 901 of 928 (758706)
05-31-2015 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 883 by Faith
05-30-2015 9:21 PM


Re: Inquisition still continuing
See, the problem is nobody has a real sense of history any more, and I've only been learning some of it recently myself because all we get these days is propaganda. All of the original thirteen colonies had religious constitutions, one of them unfortunately Catholic, but all the rest were "my particular brand of religion," being Bible-based Protestant. That such a foundation was turned into a federal government that denies those Christian roots was an incredible betrayal and there were plenty who objected to it but we don't hear any of that any more, The country was SO Christian in its population and basic worldview that it seemed to BE Christian despite the built-in betrayal. Even the main founders, who were really not Christian, Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Paine, weren't looking to get rid of Christianity, not at all, just wanted to cut down on the interdenominational squabbles. Unfortunately they unwittingly set a precedent that allowed all the anti-Christian hatred we see at EvC to flourish as it does today.
Yeah, you're listening to Barton and his crew again.
Yes there were religious state constitutions. Yes there was some discussion of religion in the Constitution.
All else is lies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 883 by Faith, posted 05-30-2015 9:21 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 915 by Faith, posted 05-31-2015 3:19 PM JonF has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 902 of 928 (758707)
05-31-2015 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 885 by Faith
05-30-2015 9:30 PM


Re: Inquisition still continuing
t's what the original American colonies did, and since they were original, how can anyone imagine they would have seen things any differently when it came to establishing a federal government.
Because they saw firsthand the problems that the original plans caused.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 885 by Faith, posted 05-30-2015 9:30 PM Faith has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(2)
Message 903 of 928 (758708)
05-31-2015 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 889 by nwr
05-30-2015 11:51 PM


Re: Inquisition still continuing
Does it make any sense that the original extremely Christian colonies with their Christian laws could possibly have intentionally designed a secular Constitution that would eventually allow the anti-Christian attitudes expressed now at EvC?
There aren't anti-Christian attituded being expressed here.
Of course they are. In every message.
You forget Faith defines words as she wishes. "Anti=Christian" means "not agreeing with Faith in every particular".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 889 by nwr, posted 05-30-2015 11:51 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 904 of 928 (758709)
05-31-2015 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 895 by Rrhain
05-31-2015 2:20 AM


Re: Inquisition still continuing
And yet, somehow that is exactly opposite of what happened. For someone who claims to know so much history, Faith, you seem to have forgotten to start with the very document that those people produced.
You may not be aware that there's a cottage industry in the US, David Barton and his ilk, that specializes in lying about the Constitution and the Founding Fathers to make "christians" like Faith feel better about their refusal to follow Jesus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 895 by Rrhain, posted 05-31-2015 2:20 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 905 of 928 (758710)
05-31-2015 9:31 AM


Reality instead of fantasy
Despite Faith's fantastic assertions that there is any attempt to get rid of Christianity in the US the reality is that even before there were States the country and its citizenry were increasingly secular. Even in strongly Methodist and Baptist Virginia most folk just didn't go to church. Sunday horse races took precedence over Sunday Church most everywhere.
What folk were aware of though was the threat that was the various Christian denominations. Several of the Colonies had been created specifically as refuges from other Christian sects and if they were to ever become States, part of a Union, then there needed to be some method that assured no sect could ever gain political power.
The result in Religious Colony after Religious Colony with the exception New England was the establishment of conditions in their constitutions requiring religious freedom. Not all the colonies were established based on religion.
The first British Colony was Virginia and it was a commercial secular venture, not religious. Georgia was also a secular venture and not religious. New York, Delaware, New Jersey, New Hampshire, Delaware, North and South Carolina were also all initially commercial endeavors. So at least nine of the original thirteen colonies were secular commercial creations as opposed to religious.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 906 of 928 (758711)
05-31-2015 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 798 by Faith
05-26-2015 10:53 PM


Re: Inquisition still continuing
But you have no evidence any of this is true.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 798 by Faith, posted 05-26-2015 10:53 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 907 of 928 (758713)
05-31-2015 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 899 by Faith
05-31-2015 3:10 AM


Re: Turing Test
It was the papacy as a system that was identified as Antichrist by Luther for sure but others as well, with or without an idea of a Final Antichrist who would embody all the biblical specifics in one person. Yes the idea fell out of favor and some strenuously argued against it
It fell out of favor for good reason. The entire idea is inane and as you acknowledge, non-Biblical. There is an Anti-Christ in the Bible, and it isn't some already dead pope or line of popes. The idea of the line of popes being the anti-Christs is made up out of whole cloth.
but the Reformers' reasoning is very compelling.
I've noticed that you find lots of superstitions compelling. But again, the idea in question here simply isn't Biblical. I suspect that you don't even recall the reasoning. Yet the idea itself is locked in your head along side some pretty silly ideas about biology and geology.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 899 by Faith, posted 05-31-2015 3:10 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 908 by jar, posted 05-31-2015 2:42 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 912 by Faith, posted 05-31-2015 3:08 PM NoNukes has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 908 of 928 (758714)
05-31-2015 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 907 by NoNukes
05-31-2015 2:26 PM


Re: Turing Test
Plus Luther did not identify the Pope as the Antichrist and in fact in his 95 Thesis supports the authority of the Pope and Papacy.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 907 by NoNukes, posted 05-31-2015 2:26 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 910 by Faith, posted 05-31-2015 2:58 PM jar has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 909 of 928 (758715)
05-31-2015 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 897 by Faith
05-31-2015 2:48 AM


Re: Inquisition still continuing
es. I'd have to check sources but the argument is that they had Christian denominations in mind and never any idea of other religions, because that's how Christian the nation was at the time.
So in your mind, when the constitution said that there would be no religious tests for public office, that somehow exclude tests for Christianity? Perhaps you need to reconsider your argument.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 897 by Faith, posted 05-31-2015 2:48 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 910 of 928 (758716)
05-31-2015 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 908 by jar
05-31-2015 2:42 PM


Re: Turing Test
Plus Luther did not identify the Pope as the Antichrist and in fact in his 95 Thesis supports the authority of the Pope and Papacy.
Well, of course.; At first he had no intention of leaving the Roman Church, he was merely raising issues for debate which he assumed would be agreeable to the Pope. It was when the Pope rebuffed his efforts that he began to see problems. It took him a few years to arrive at the conclusion that the papacy was the Antichrist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 908 by jar, posted 05-31-2015 2:42 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 911 by jar, posted 05-31-2015 3:07 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 911 of 928 (758717)
05-31-2015 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 910 by Faith
05-31-2015 2:58 PM


the absurdity of the Pope as Antichrist
Yet in the 95 Thesis Luther did support the authority of the Pope and Papacy.
But even beyond that, to make the claim today that the Pope is the Antichrist is simply silly. No even one characteristic of a Antichrist fits the Pope or Papacy.
Today such claims are just laughable, yet more evidence that the Christian Cult of Ignorance is founded upon dishonesty and marketing hate to the gullible.
It is yet another evidence that the CCoI really is the greatest threat the US faces.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 910 by Faith, posted 05-31-2015 2:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 914 by Faith, posted 05-31-2015 3:16 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 912 of 928 (758718)
05-31-2015 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 907 by NoNukes
05-31-2015 2:26 PM


Re: Turing Test
It was the papacy as a system that was identified as Antichrist by Luther for sure but others as well, with or without an idea of a Final Antichrist who would embody all the biblical specifics in one person. Yes the idea fell out of favor and some strenuously argued against it
It fell out of favor for good reason. The entire idea is inane and as you acknowledge, non-Biblical.
You have a knack for misreading me that I can never anticipate. I wasn't saying that the idea is non-Biblical at all, I merely happened to mention that the biblical specifics of an individual Antichrist might or might not also be part of the analysis. But that certainly isn't saying the Reformers' view of the papacy as Antichrist didn't also meet those biblical specifics. It did. They matched the papacy with every biblical reference.
There is an Anti-Christ in the Bible, and it isn't some already dead pope or line of popes. The idea of the line of popes being the anti-Christs is made up out of whole cloth.
Obviously you haven't read any of Luther's arguments on the subject. The papacy is always one man at a time so there is always AN Antichrist on the papal throne.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 907 by NoNukes, posted 05-31-2015 2:26 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 917 by NoNukes, posted 05-31-2015 4:16 PM Faith has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 913 of 928 (758719)
05-31-2015 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 843 by Faith
05-28-2015 4:12 PM


Re: Sin?
I don't see where God is actually saying anything about sin what so ever. I see a bunch of people make claims in God's name, but that is vastly different than God saying anything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 843 by Faith, posted 05-28-2015 4:12 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 914 of 928 (758720)
05-31-2015 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 911 by jar
05-31-2015 3:07 PM


Re: the absurdity of the Pope as Antichrist
Yet in the 95 Thesis Luther did support the authority of the Pope and Papacy.
Pretty silly to hold him to a position he completely rejected a few years later.
But even beyond that, to make the claim today that the Pope is the Antichrist is simply silly. No even one characteristic of a Antichrist fits the Pope or Papacy.
You need to read the Reformers' thoughts on the subject.
Today such claims are just laughable, yet more evidence that the Christian Cult of Ignorance is founded upon dishonesty and marketing hate to the gullible.
Well, the idea is not popular among Christians so you can drop your smear of all Christians. This happens to be something I've been learning about and become convinced of personally.
It is yet another evidence that the CCoI really is the greatest threat the US faces.
Must be me alone who is that greatest threat then, along with a few dozen others, because the idea, as I said, is not popular with evangelicals. Most are deluded that the Roman Church is just another Christian denomination, and their idea of the Antichrist is that he's going to appear pretty soon but that nobody knows who he is, and he'll rise rapidly to world political power. Since Hitler was a model for that kind of Antichrist I hold out the possibility that the basic idea is right but that the Pope will be his main backer, as the Pope was also for Hitler.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 911 by jar, posted 05-31-2015 3:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 916 by jar, posted 05-31-2015 4:09 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 915 of 928 (758721)
05-31-2015 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 901 by JonF
05-31-2015 8:45 AM


Re: Inquisition still continuing
I do not read Barton and reject his stuff as false.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 901 by JonF, posted 05-31-2015 8:45 AM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 918 by JonF, posted 05-31-2015 4:32 PM Faith has replied

  
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