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Author Topic:   Jihadists must die, --- but our real enemies are the Qur’an and Bible.
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 31 of 375 (751306)
03-02-2015 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Phat
03-02-2015 9:21 AM


Re: We Have Met The Enemy And He Is Us.
Phat writes:
Why is it you always take the contrarian position by default?
Firstly, it's not contrarian, it merely differs from yours.
Secondly, I don't disagree with you by default, I disagree when I consider you to be wrong - tell me that snow is cold and that tea doesn't need sugar and I'll agree.
Thirdly, we're here to argue, if we agreed we'd be in your church, not here.
Fourthly, why don't you answer the question?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 03-02-2015 9:21 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

1.61803
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 32 of 375 (751308)
03-02-2015 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Greatest I am
02-28-2015 1:05 PM


Greatest I am writes:
I am not concerned with the more intelligent. It is the less intelligent that need the help and not reading certain passages that justify Jihad would go a long way to that end.
It is not the books, it is the people using the books to implement and justify their demented ideology. Evil men using religion as means to a end imo.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Greatest I am, posted 02-28-2015 1:05 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Greatest I am, posted 03-19-2015 5:20 PM 1.61803 has not replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8493
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 33 of 375 (751386)
03-02-2015 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by New Cat's Eye
03-02-2015 9:56 AM


The First is first.
Remember that Kitzmiller v Dover involved private citizens suing a government entity for violating the Constitution.
What does anyone imagine would happen if the government attempted Greatest's proposal?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-02-2015 9:56 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-02-2015 5:07 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 38 by Greatest I am, posted 03-19-2015 5:22 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 375 (751388)
03-02-2015 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by AZPaul3
03-02-2015 5:01 PM


Re: The First is first.
Remember that Kitzmiller v Dover involved private citizens suing a government entity for violating the Constitution.
Sure, that's what I was talking about.
When he says that the government should censor these books, and then I say that's a waste of time and money, then its kinda retarded to ask, in response to that, if going after ID was also a waste of time and money.
In that case, people brought it to court. The government didn't really have much of a choice in addressing it - other than dismissing the case, I suppose.
What does anyone imagine would happen if the government attempted Greatest's proposal?
Well, for what reason, and under what authority, would they even begin attempting his proposal?
How does the government even go about starting a program to censor books? Wouldn't it crash before it even took off?
This whole idea is just stupid.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by AZPaul3, posted 03-02-2015 5:01 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 264 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 35 of 375 (753410)
03-19-2015 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by AZPaul3
03-01-2015 3:19 PM


AZPaul3
If we use "Social Enlightenment. Education. Not censorship."--- then we need do nothing to your poorly written and amended constitution.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by AZPaul3, posted 03-01-2015 3:19 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 264 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 36 of 375 (753411)
03-19-2015 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by NoNukes
03-01-2015 5:05 PM


Phat
I agree and so does the bible that Jesus was plan A.
That fact is what makes Christianity such an immoral creed.
Your God chose to have Jesus murdered even before he created the potential for sin.
1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
The following 2 quotes are why I call what God did murder. As you can see, a sacrifice was not required.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
As you can see all are saved without a sacrifice.
================
Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.
Jesus said to pick up your cross and follow him but I see that you have taken the line that someone else should pay your dues. Quite manly and moral that. Not.
Do you really think someone else can pay your dues and allow you to shirk your just reward?
Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.
Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]
As above so below.
If you had God's power, would you not be able to find a way that does not go against the wisdom of Jesus and the bible?
Perhaps like being man enough to step up to your own demands for a worthy sacrifice?
That is what a good God would do.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by NoNukes, posted 03-01-2015 5:05 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by GDR, posted 06-05-2015 7:22 PM Greatest I am has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 264 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 37 of 375 (753412)
03-19-2015 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by 1.61803
03-02-2015 10:10 AM


1.61803
I agree but you do not seem to recognise that their demented ideology they get from the book that advocate changing.
Their ideology will not change without revisions to their books.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by 1.61803, posted 03-02-2015 10:10 AM 1.61803 has not replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 264 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 38 of 375 (753413)
03-19-2015 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by AZPaul3
03-02-2015 5:01 PM


Re: The First is first.
AZPaul3
Things would hit the fan and just the conversation as to myth or reality of these mythical books would go a long way in reducing the number of religious literalists.
Facts tend to do that.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by AZPaul3, posted 03-02-2015 5:01 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by MrHambre, posted 06-05-2015 6:18 AM Greatest I am has replied

MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1383 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 39 of 375 (758890)
06-05-2015 6:18 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Greatest I am
03-19-2015 5:22 PM


The End of the End of Faith
their demented ideology
Things would hit the fan and just the conversation as to myth or reality of these mythical books would go a long way in reducing the number of religious literalists.
Facts tend to do that.
This is why I no longer identify as an atheist. I'm nonreligious, but I've been dismayed to see atheism turn from a freethought community into a hate group.
I blame Sam Harris more than anyone else. The End of Faith was the book that set the tone for millennial atheism. In it, Harris redefined religion as not a complex cultural construct that had a long and problematic history, but rather as a set of false beliefs people profess about reality. The manifesto was full of quotes designed to be used as ammunition by the millennial debate culture and discourage dialogue: "There is nothing more sacred than the facts." "Religion is what credulity becomes when it finally achieves escape velocity from the constraints of terrestrial discourse." "Presuming knowledge when one has only pious hope is a species of evil."
This was only a couple of years after 9/11, and there was plenty of trauma and resentment waiting to be exploited. Harris's ideas spread like wildfire among people who preferred such philosophically shallow rhetoric to a mature, reasonable understanding of the complex realities of religion. I was going through a nasty divorce at the time, and needed stability and order in uncertain economic and dismal political times. Harris (and the New Atheist ideologues who accompanied Harris) pandered to the narrow-minded aggression of online crusaders who had no problem stereotyping religious people as delusional, dangerous, and ignorant.
But sooner or later you have to grow out of this cartoon culture warrior mentality. The lack of empathy and the cheap scientism make for a very anti-humanistic viewpoint. The meretricious appeals to the plight of women and the LGBTQ community start to ring hollow in the absence of any real commitment to the empowerment of the marginalized. And making it sound like the greatest good in society is accomplished by mockery just shows how immature this impotent grandstanding is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Greatest I am, posted 03-19-2015 5:22 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Tangle, posted 06-05-2015 8:49 AM MrHambre has replied
 Message 44 by Greatest I am, posted 06-05-2015 8:06 PM MrHambre has replied
 Message 90 by saab93f, posted 06-08-2015 8:16 AM MrHambre has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 40 of 375 (758892)
06-05-2015 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by MrHambre
06-05-2015 6:18 AM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
Mr Hambre writes:
I've been dismayed to see atheism turn from a freethought community into a hate group.
I think this is at least as big a caricature of the situation as you claim is being made of believers by atheists.
I blame Sam Harris more than anyone else. etc
It's been a long time since I read that book, but it wasn't the message I got from it.
But these sorts of complaints are common enough from believers - I put it down to them never having to hear about atheism, and now they do. Too bad, we've suffered their messages, now it's their turn.
Btw, when you say you're non-religious, does that mean you're a deist or have you just gone off the word atheist?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by MrHambre, posted 06-05-2015 6:18 AM MrHambre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by MrHambre, posted 06-05-2015 9:08 AM Tangle has replied

MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1383 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 41 of 375 (758894)
06-05-2015 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Tangle
06-05-2015 8:49 AM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
Tangle writes:
I think this is at least as big a caricature of the situation as you claim is being made of believers by atheists.
I think it applies to the organized, online, American Atheist community of nonbelief. They repudiate the opinions of the majority as delusions, then bemoan the fact that the majority doesn't respect them. They stereotype and demonize believers as bigoted, ignorant, and homicidal, and pretend that teh Science validates their prejudices. And they make it sound like only butthurt religious fanatics would object to such puerile behavior.
But these sorts of complaints are common enough from believers
Case in point.
Btw, when you say you're non-religious, does that mean you're a deist or have you just gone off the word atheist?
No, I'm not a deist or any such thing. I'm just sick of the A-word and all the passive-aggressive nonsense that is associated with it. There are very disturbing aspects of religion that deserve to be addressed. However, the digital sandbox and its associated media are just feeding a debate culture, not providing an informed critique.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Tangle, posted 06-05-2015 8:49 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Tangle, posted 06-05-2015 9:31 AM MrHambre has not replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 42 of 375 (758896)
06-05-2015 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by MrHambre
06-05-2015 9:08 AM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
Mr Hambre writes:
I think it applies to the organized, online, American Atheist community of nonbelief. They repudiate the opinions of the majority as delusions, then bemoan the fact that the majority doesn't respect them. They stereotype and demonize believers as bigoted, ignorant, and homicidal, and pretend that teh Science validates their prejudices. And they make it sound like only butthurt religious fanatics would object to such puerile behavior.
Well OK, I wouldn't know much about that - I don't bother with such sites. But it would need to be a milion times louder to balance the drivel we get routinely from the believers side everywhere we go.
Case in point.
Fact in point. A rather obvious one at that.
However, the digital sandbox and its associated media are just feeding a debate culture, not providing an informed critique.
That's not the way it seems to me - perhaps things are more extreem in the US. I think Harris is doing a good job, Hitch was teriffic and you don't get much more thoughtful and considered that Dan Dennet. Dawkins is a bit hard to take at times I grant you.
I'm with you on the debate gravy train though - but perhaps it's just a symptom of being able to talk about it finally? These things happen when controversies emerge and consciousness gets raised - people on both sides take offence and things tend towards the extreem.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by MrHambre, posted 06-05-2015 9:08 AM MrHambre has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 43 of 375 (758924)
06-05-2015 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Greatest I am
03-19-2015 5:15 PM


G I A writes:
I agree and so does the bible that Jesus was plan A.
That fact is what makes Christianity such an immoral creed.
Your God chose to have Jesus murdered even before he created the potential for sin.
1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
The following 2 quotes are why I call what God did murder. As you can see, a sacrifice was not required.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
As you can see all are saved without a sacrifice.
================
Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.
Jesus said to pick up your cross and follow him but I see that you have taken the line that someone else should pay your dues. Quite manly and moral that. Not.
Do you really think someone else can pay your dues and allow you to shirk your just reward?
Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.
Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]
As above so below.
If you had God's power, would you not be able to find a way that does not go against the wisdom of Jesus and the bible?
Perhaps like being man enough to step up to your own demands for a worthy sacrifice?
That is what a good God would do.
You are responding to one specific understanding of the Bible drawn from a select group of passages. If you go to the first chapter of the Gospel of John the writer makes the claim that Jesus embodied the Word or the Wisdom of God. Sometimes Christians get so wound up with trying to prove Jesus was God in one way or another they overlook the fact that Jesus was a man, and more specifically a 1st century Jew living and teaching within a 1st century Jewish culture.
The ideas that you are responding to overlook the fact that we see Jesus prior to going into Jerusalem praying to the Father that He not have to go through with what lay ahead. It was optional. He knew full well what happened to those who made enemies of those in power. He did seem to believe that in some way though God would vindicate Him and confirm His teachings, but in the end He went into Jerusalem as a great act of faith. It was men who crucified Jesus because that is what those in power in that culture did, and it was God who resurrected Him.
Yes, you can take your understanding of the Gospel accounts by attempting to take the Bible as being literally written by God and then cherry picking specific verses and ignoring others. However, if you take the Bible as a book written by people inspired to write the accounts of there day with all of their biases and misunderstandings, and then read the Bible holistically you get a different picture.
The religion is Christianity. It is about being a follower of Jesus. Jesus is the one who teaches that we are to love our enemies. turn the other cheek. do unto others etc and God the Father affirmed and vindicated the life of Jesus with His resurrection.
So yes, if one is going to take a fundamentalist approach to either the Bible or the Qu'ran then you can get a very different view of the nature of God than what we see in Jesus. However, just a cursory glance at human history shows conclusively that you don't need a religious book to justify all sorts of atrocities.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Greatest I am, posted 03-19-2015 5:15 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Greatest I am, posted 06-05-2015 8:18 PM GDR has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 264 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 44 of 375 (758926)
06-05-2015 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by MrHambre
06-05-2015 6:18 AM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
MrHambre
I am not an atheist but encourage atheist to not take the crap that the usual believer tries to push.
I like to see people run hot or cold and the non-believing world has been abused by most mainstream religions long enough.
I give religions as much heat as I can and think atheists should do the same. I think it a part of our social contract to each other to correct damaging religious thinking.
The mainstream Western religions deserve no respect at all in my view as they show how useless and immoral they are by their institutionalized homophobia and misogyny.
If morals cannot be their prime objective then they are not worthy.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by MrHambre, posted 06-05-2015 6:18 AM MrHambre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by MrHambre, posted 06-05-2015 8:52 PM Greatest I am has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 264 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 45 of 375 (758927)
06-05-2015 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by GDR
06-05-2015 7:22 PM


GDR
I agree but a holy book makes it so much easier to talk yourself into doing something evil.
I agree that many different ideas come from scriptures if not read literally but all those who believe in Jesus must read the bible literally to some extent.
"The religion is Christianity. It is about being a follower of Jesus. Jesus is the one who teaches that we are to love our enemies. turn the other cheek. do unto others etc and God the Father affirmed and vindicated the life of Jesus with His resurrection."
Let me give you this link that speaks to the morality of some of those teachings. Not to the resurrection though. That bit of myth is too silly to even consider.
I particularly think that Jesus no divorce law for women is an anti-love policy that does not belong in a religion that preaches love while having a God that only shows hate.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4b6_1381019976
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by GDR, posted 06-05-2015 7:22 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by GDR, posted 06-05-2015 11:15 PM Greatest I am has replied

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