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Author Topic:   Murder most foul ... ?
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1486 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 1 of 14 (758794)
06-02-2015 4:25 PM


quote:
Scientists Find Evidence For 430,000-year-old Murder
May 27, 2015
A wound on a 430,000-year-old skull may be the brutal evidence of one of the first cases of murder in the hominin fossil record. The study, published in the journal PLOS ONE, analyzed the remains of 28 individuals in a Spanish cave site and found further evidence for early funereal practices.
The siteknown as Sima de los Huesoshas puzzled archeologists for many years. No one really knows how the remains of the 28 individuals, which belong to a Neanderthal clade, got there in the first place. The remains of the individuals date back to the Middle Pleistocene. Researchers went to the Sima de los Huesos, found within an underground cave system, to investigate the mystery and were ‘surprised’ by the results.
Nohemi Sala and her research team found a nearly complete skullCranium 17with two penetrating wounds above the left eye. Using modern forensics, researchers interpreted the findings as evidence of blunt force trauma, which occurred around the time of death of the individual.
CSI Sima de los Huesos ...
Enjoy
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fix quote box.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 4 by Jon, posted 06-03-2015 2:57 PM RAZD has replied

  
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Message 2 of 14 (758810)
06-03-2015 10:32 AM


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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1585 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 3 of 14 (758814)
06-03-2015 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
06-02-2015 4:25 PM


Hello RAZD,
Interesting. Is it possible he/she fell and sustained the injury by accident? Hi RAZD, I should of read the article. It seems multiple blows. So the guy would of had to fall against the same object more than once. "Something rotten in the state of Denmark."
Edited by 1.61803, : No reason given.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 14 (758816)
06-03-2015 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
06-02-2015 4:25 PM


I wonder if there was anything funny on the other remains.
Apparently there were remains from 28 different people.

Love your enemies!

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1585 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 5 of 14 (758821)
06-03-2015 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Jon
06-03-2015 2:57 PM


The first Hominid serial killer perhaps?

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 14 (758830)
06-03-2015 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by 1.61803
06-03-2015 4:39 PM


Maybe.
But if it is a mass grave of killed people, it might mean something else... like warfare.

Love your enemies!

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1486 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 7 of 14 (758848)
06-04-2015 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Jon
06-03-2015 6:47 PM


But if it is a mass grave of killed people, it might mean something else... like warfare.
That's pitiful ...
but it also could be sacrifice

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1486 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 8 of 14 (758849)
06-04-2015 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by 1.61803
06-03-2015 12:40 PM


... Is it possible he/she fell and sustained the injury by accident? Hi RAZD, I should of read the article. It seems multiple blows. So the guy would of had to fall against the same object more than once. "Something rotten in the state of Denmark."
Yep, and what they don't say is whether the same blow pattern shows up on others or it there are different instruments used. That could help determine whether war or sacrifice.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1486 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 9 of 14 (758852)
06-04-2015 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Jon
06-03-2015 2:57 PM


I wonder if there was anything funny on the other remains.
Apparently there were remains from 28 different people.
Indeed, and if the same instrument was used -- if so then it might be sacrifices.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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jar
Member
Posts: 34054
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 10 of 14 (758858)
06-04-2015 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by RAZD
06-04-2015 9:32 AM


purpose built tools.
I wonder how they determined there were two blows rather than just one. Is it possible that they were using a modern concept of purpose built tools when what we see from that period are a combination of purpose built and also using what was available. If the two holes are the result of one blow from one object could it not also be accidental in nature?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 11 of 14 (758879)
06-04-2015 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by RAZD
06-04-2015 9:32 AM


Indeed, and if the same instrument was used -- if so then it might be sacrifices.
Sacrifice would tell us so much about these folks.
I'm not aware of other species that practice sacrifice. And I can't really imagine a culture practicing sacrifice without some form of complex symbolic communication (i.e., language).

Love your enemies!

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2187 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 12 of 14 (758880)
06-04-2015 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Jon
06-04-2015 10:26 PM


True. But there is little reason to think folks at this (recent) time period didn't have decent communication skills.
Those skills probably were developing >3 million years ago, and got a lot better with Homo erectus.
If I remember a long ways back, the argument for earlier folks lacking communication skills was a minor change in the larynx at the Neanderthal level or some such. That might mean that earlier folks couldn't articulate quite as well as Homo sap. but that doesn't mean they were still communicating at the ape level.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Jon, posted 06-05-2015 9:35 PM Coyote has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 14 (758931)
06-05-2015 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Coyote
06-04-2015 11:00 PM


It goes to strengthening the case, I suppose.
One discover after another is making it harder and harder for antiquated anthropologists and the like to cling to the silly idea that we are unique or that our earlier selves don't deserve the title 'human' just as much as we do.

Love your enemies!

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2187 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 14 of 14 (758932)
06-05-2015 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Jon
06-05-2015 9:35 PM


There certainly is a lot about the distant past that we don't understand yet.
But I am doubtful about the "large jump" idea of evolution. After looking at these things for decades I am more of the idea that things improved gradually with a series of smaller jumps.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Jon, posted 06-05-2015 9:35 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
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