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Author Topic:   Jihadists must die, --- but our real enemies are the Qur’an and Bible.
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 46 of 375 (758929)
06-05-2015 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Greatest I am
06-05-2015 8:06 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
The mainstream Western religions deserve no respect at all in my view as they show how useless and immoral they are by their institutionalized homophobia and misogyny.
If morals cannot be their prime objective then they are not worthy.
I have to say that there seems to be such a vast range of interpretation in modern religion that it's difficult-slash-impossible to determine with any degree of certainty what the meaning of such matters as jihad or the status of homosexuals is supposed to be. I objected to your stereotypes of religious believers because I'm not sure Western religion is the sole source of bigotry in our civilization, or that your ideas encapsulate the beliefs of mainstream Christians and Muslims in the USA.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Greatest I am, posted 06-05-2015 8:06 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Greatest I am, posted 06-06-2015 10:21 AM MrHambre has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 47 of 375 (758934)
06-05-2015 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Greatest I am
06-05-2015 8:18 PM


[as=G I A]I agree but a holy book makes it so much easier to talk yourself into doing something evil.[/qs]
People who want to do evil will always find justification. It is all about power and greed.
G I A writes:
I agree that many different ideas come from scriptures if not read literally but all those who believe in Jesus must read the bible literally to some extent.
Sure, but all theistic religions are about trying to discern the true nature of God and then decide what to do about it if anything. As a Christian I believe that we can know the true nature of God by what I understand about Jesus. If you try and take the Bible as essentially dictated by God then you have to square a God who commands genocide and public stonings with one who says that we are to love our enemies etc. It just can't be done.
G I A writes:
Let me give you this link that speaks to the morality of some of those teachings. Not to the resurrection though. That bit of myth is too silly to even consider.
I particularly think that Jesus no divorce law for women is an anti-love policy that does not belong in a religion that preaches love while having a God that only shows hate.
I watched that video and found that the speaker consistently takes takes specific parts of the Gospels and twists them beyond recognition. Just take for example his take on loving your neighbour as you love yourself. He claims that you don't love your neighbour as you love your family. Of course, it is just that we only have one word for love. It is simply that we are to want the best for our neighbour just as we want the best for ourselves.
Actually Jesus only says that man should not divorce his wife except that he "may" do so only in the case of adultery. He doesn't say that a woman can't divorce her husband. He was only trying to protect women from abject poverty.
As far as the resurrection is concerned I just don't see it as being that difficult. If one accepts the likelihood of life being the result of a pre-existing intelligence as opposed to being the result of an infinite string of mindless processes then it isn't much of a stretch to think that there might be more of a point to all of this rather than just transient lives that will come to nothing when the universe dies out.
From there I just don't see it as that great a stretch to believe that God might actually have a plan that calls for the resurrection of the entire creation, and that He could, in the middle of time, resurrect the one man who perfectly embodied His nature.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Greatest I am, posted 06-05-2015 8:18 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Tangle, posted 06-06-2015 2:43 AM GDR has replied
 Message 50 by Greatest I am, posted 06-06-2015 10:30 AM GDR has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 48 of 375 (758938)
06-06-2015 2:43 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by GDR
06-05-2015 11:15 PM


GDR writes:
As far as the resurrection is concerned I just don't see it as being that difficult. If one accepts the likelihood of life being the result of a pre-existing intelligence as opposed to being the result of an infinite string of mindless processes then it isn't much of a stretch to think that there might be more of a point to all of this rather than just transient lives that will come to nothing when the universe dies out.
You mean that if you can believe something that has not only no evidence but is also contrary to the evidence, and has no philosophical basis either, then it's also possible to fool yourself into wishful thinking about mythical afterlives?
From there I just don't see it as that great a stretch to believe that God might actually have a plan that calls for the resurrection of the entire creation, and that He could, in the middle of time, resurrect the one man who perfectly embodied His nature.
This 'easy stretch' requires us to believe that one particular mythology - the Christian version - is the correct story to believe amongst all the other candidates. And in this version god sends himself down to earth to get himself killed so he can pop back to life again then disapear in order for people to be saved. It's the most bonkers of the many myths in that book - it's not even a stretch, it's not even Harry Potter, it's just incomprehensible. (That and the fact that the entire thing has been fabricated and that it fails in its own prophecy - the second coming did not happen as predicted.) Basically, it fails every single sanity test you can throw at it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by GDR, posted 06-05-2015 11:15 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by GDR, posted 06-06-2015 5:23 PM Tangle has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 49 of 375 (758950)
06-06-2015 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by MrHambre
06-05-2015 8:52 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
MrHambre
I know that my brush is wide in the issues of homophobia and misogyny, but in the West, Christianity has been the majority for many years and women and gays still go hungry for equality and justice and revues show clearly that Christianity is not a friend of equality, women and gays. Islam is worse.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqN8EYIIR3g&feature=related
Do not get me wrong. We are progressing. We also have a long way to go.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by MrHambre, posted 06-05-2015 8:52 PM MrHambre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by MrHambre, posted 06-06-2015 11:03 AM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 53 by jar, posted 06-06-2015 1:07 PM Greatest I am has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 50 of 375 (758953)
06-06-2015 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by GDR
06-05-2015 11:15 PM


GDR
If Jesus is the best mankind can do then we are surely in deep trouble.
You are correct in what Jesus said about men divorcing. That does not say that women can. Equality of access to divorce was not promoted by Jesus nor was the equality of slaves.
If a man, Jesus can be forgiven but as a God, to forgive the injustice he preached is not forgivable.
The clincher for me is his promotion of human sacrifice and the notion that we should profit from the punishment of the innocent instead of the guilty.
From that immoral policy, all of todays Christianity was born.
Seems we have to sell our souls to Satan to try to get to use our get out of hell free card.
Christians will be surprised when that free pass does not work.
Regards
DL
Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by GDR, posted 06-05-2015 11:15 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by GDR, posted 06-06-2015 5:30 PM Greatest I am has not replied

MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


(2)
Message 51 of 375 (758954)
06-06-2015 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Greatest I am
06-06-2015 10:21 AM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
I know that my brush is wide in the issues of homophobia and misogyny
Yeah, maybe just a little.
but in the West, Christianity has been the majority for many years and women and gays still go hungry for equality and justice and revues show clearly that Christianity is not a friend of equality, women and gays. Islam is worse.
"Revues"
Can I ask how dedicated you are to the cause of empowering the marginalized when you're not using their plight to bash religion? It seems to me that if you really considered gender parity and gay rights such important causes, you wouldn't simply exploit them for anti-theistic rants. I'm sure women and the LGBT community are glowing with admiration at being paid internet lip service by firebrand atheists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Greatest I am, posted 06-06-2015 10:21 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Greatest I am, posted 06-06-2015 11:30 AM MrHambre has not replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 52 of 375 (758955)
06-06-2015 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by MrHambre
06-06-2015 11:03 AM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
MrHambre
I am not an atheist. I am a Gnostic Christian and a cut above Christians and Muslims in terms or equality, which we tie to righteousness.
I do not see women and gays complain of what I do. I do see many so called moral Christians and Muslims upset when they have to recognize their own immorality by their denying women and gays equality.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by MrHambre, posted 06-06-2015 11:03 AM MrHambre has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by ringo, posted 06-06-2015 1:29 PM Greatest I am has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 53 of 375 (758957)
06-06-2015 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Greatest I am
06-06-2015 10:21 AM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
When Christianity elects a woman as Presiding Bishop it is anti-woman.
When a gay person is elected a Bishop is that also anti-gay?
When Christianity sanctions same sex marriages is that anti-homsexual too?
Do your hit and run rants make you feel better?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Greatest I am, posted 06-06-2015 10:21 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Greatest I am, posted 06-06-2015 1:19 PM jar has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 54 of 375 (758958)
06-06-2015 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by jar
06-06-2015 1:07 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
jar
Did your idiocy make you feel better?
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by jar, posted 06-06-2015 1:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by jar, posted 06-06-2015 1:57 PM Greatest I am has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(4)
Message 55 of 375 (758961)
06-06-2015 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Greatest I am
06-06-2015 11:30 AM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
Greatest I am writes:
I am a Gnostic Christian and a cut above Christians and Muslims in terms or equality, which we tie to righteousness.
You're better at equality than your inferiors? Are you also more humble than us mere mortals?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Greatest I am, posted 06-06-2015 11:30 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Greatest I am, posted 06-06-2015 3:27 PM ringo has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 56 of 375 (758962)
06-06-2015 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Greatest I am
06-06-2015 1:19 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
Honesty or an answer might make me feel better.
When Christianity elects a woman as Presiding Bishop it is anti-woman?
When a gay person is elected a Bishop is that also anti-gay?
When Christianity sanctions same sex marriages is that anti-homsexual too?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Greatest I am, posted 06-06-2015 1:19 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Greatest I am, posted 06-06-2015 3:32 PM jar has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 57 of 375 (758964)
06-06-2015 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by AZPaul3
02-28-2015 2:21 PM


Oops
Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by AZPaul3, posted 02-28-2015 2:21 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 58 of 375 (758965)
06-06-2015 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by ringo
06-06-2015 1:29 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
Ringo
Humble is overrated.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by ringo, posted 06-06-2015 1:29 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by ringo, posted 06-07-2015 2:17 PM Greatest I am has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 59 of 375 (758966)
06-06-2015 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by jar
06-06-2015 1:57 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
jar
You think we should forget 3,000 of female and gay oppression just because Christians find a small bit of common sense for gays as they continue to discriminate against women.
You forget how hard gays had to fight for equality that women still do not have thanks to Christians and Muslims.
All but a few of the Abrahamic cults grand equality to all showing just how immoral the Abrahamic cults generally are.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by jar, posted 06-06-2015 1:57 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 06-06-2015 3:52 PM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 61 by jar, posted 06-06-2015 4:00 PM Greatest I am has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 60 of 375 (758967)
06-06-2015 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Greatest I am
06-06-2015 3:32 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
This discussion is so bizarre I had no idea of getting anywhere near it and I probably shouldn't now either.
But I HAVE to say that imputing a rejection of gay marriage to religion is historically bonkers. NO CULTURE EVER even considered gay marriage; it's a complete innovation that flies in the fact of plain COMMON SENSE, having NOTHING to do with religion though it is being made a very convenient excuse for attacking Christianity in particular.
Also, the subjugation of women goes back to the Fall when Eve was cursed with it for her disobedience. ALL CULTURES SINCE THEN prove the truth of the Fall without even knowing about it, by their subjugation of women to the rule of men. It is ONLY CHRISTIANITY that has countered that effect of the Fall at all: Jesus accepted women into His company of followers although in the context of the misogyny of His time and place that would have cost Him status. Even His male disciples chided Him for His acceptance of women. God gave women the honor of discovering the risen Christ before any of the men, and because of the prejudice against women they wouldn't believe them but had to go see for themselves.
And by the way it was Paul who said that for believers in Christ there is now no male nor female but all are one in Christ.
Consider what a huge cultural framework against women we're talking about here and get SOME perspective on why it took so long to make any real difference, and that difference finally came ONLY through Christian influence.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Greatest I am, posted 06-06-2015 3:32 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Greatest I am, posted 06-06-2015 5:25 PM Faith has replied
 Message 80 by anglagard, posted 06-07-2015 11:18 PM Faith has replied
 Message 96 by Greatest I am, posted 06-08-2015 10:52 AM Faith has not replied

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