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Author Topic:   Jihadists must die, --- but our real enemies are the Qur’an and Bible.
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 61 of 375 (758968)
06-06-2015 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Greatest I am
06-06-2015 3:32 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
GIA writes:
You think we should forget 3,000 of female and gay oppression just because Christians find a small bit of common sense for gays as they continue to discriminate against women.
No, nor have I said that such things should be forgotten. Nor is my Christian Church discriminating against women. What I think is that perhaps you should try a small amount of eduction.
GIA writes:
You forget how hard gays had to fight for equality that women still do not have thanks to Christians and Muslims.
Again, try learning. My Christian church offers equality to both gays and women. Do you know who The Most Rev. Dr. Katharine Jefferts Schori happens to be or what her position is?
Perhaps you simply need to recognize your abject ignorance and instead ask to be educated.
Remember, if just one Christian Church does not discriminate against women your whole premise has been shown to be false.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Greatest I am, posted 06-06-2015 3:32 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Greatest I am, posted 06-06-2015 5:19 PM jar has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 62 of 375 (758973)
06-06-2015 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by jar
06-06-2015 4:00 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
jar
If you wanted or could educate you would.
All who fly the cross and follow the bible will discriminate as that is what Christianity does best.
None, as far as I know, have taken out the passages that say man will rule over women and that women should not teach men.
Show which bible has deleted those misogyny creating verses.
If you wanted or could educate you would.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by jar, posted 06-06-2015 4:00 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by jar, posted 06-06-2015 5:43 PM Greatest I am has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 63 of 375 (758975)
06-06-2015 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Tangle
06-06-2015 2:43 AM


Tangle writes:
You mean that if you can believe something that has not only no evidence but is also contrary to the evidence, and has no philosophical basis either, then it's also possible to fool yourself into wishful thinking about mythical afterlives?
Of course there is evidence. That Gospels are evidence and the start of the Christian church is evidence. Is it conclusive? No. You can choose to accept it or reject it.
What is the evidence that the Big Bang or the process of evolution are the result of a infinite string of mindless processes? There is no evidence nor philosophical basis for believing that either.
Tangle writes:
This 'easy stretch' requires us to believe that one particular mythology - the Christian version - is the correct story to believe amongst all the other candidates. And in this version god sends himself down to earth to get himself killed so he can pop back to life again then disapear in order for people to be saved. It's the most bonkers of the many myths in that book - it's not even a stretch, it's not even Harry Potter, it's just incomprehensible. (That and the fact that the entire thing has been fabricated and that it fails in its own prophecy - the second coming did not happen as predicted.) Basically, it fails every single sanity test you can throw at it.
Well first off, if God decided to send Himself to Earth it rather begs the question of who Jesus was praying to. There is a difference between God physically showing as compared to having His nature perfectly embodied in a human being. As far as prophesy is concerned you are once again using the fundamentalist view as a strawman. Most of the prophesies were about the fall of Jerusalem. It didn't take supernatural knowledge to know that if you kept up the aggression against the Romans they would do what they always did, and for that matter it did happen within the life times of many in that generation.
Yes there were some that thought that time would end in their life times but there have always been those that believed that. We do know that life in the world as we know it will end at some point, so we will see at that time whether or not there is re-creation of this world or not.
In the meantime we should all do what we can to care for our planet and the life on it regardless of our beliefs.
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Tangle, posted 06-06-2015 2:43 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Tangle, posted 06-07-2015 2:15 AM GDR has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 64 of 375 (758976)
06-06-2015 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Faith
06-06-2015 3:52 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
Faith.
The best way to deal with you is two links.
One that shows how Christianity worked hard to give women equality, or not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqN8EYIIR3g&feature=related
The other speaks to Christianity and gay marriage.
WHEN SAME-SEX MARRIAGE WAS A CHRISTIAN RITE1
You will note that Catholics still have no female Bishops and that only some of the protestant churches have women priests and mostly because shrinking numbers could not find male clergy.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 06-06-2015 3:52 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 06-06-2015 10:35 PM Greatest I am has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 65 of 375 (758977)
06-06-2015 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Greatest I am
06-06-2015 10:30 AM


G I A writes:
If Jesus is the best mankind can do then we are surely in deep trouble.
You are correct in what Jesus said about men divorcing. That does not say that women can. Equality of access to divorce was not promoted by Jesus nor was the equality of slaves.
If a man, Jesus can be forgiven but as a God, to forgive the injustice he preached is not forgivable.
The clincher for me is his promotion of human sacrifice and the notion that we should profit from the punishment of the innocent instead of the guilty.
From that immoral policy, all of todays Christianity was born.
Seems we have to sell our souls to Satan to try to get to use our get out of hell free card.
Christians will be surprised when that free pass does not work.
Well, you can keep espousing the views of fundamentalist Christians and then shooting down that strawman. I can do that as well.
I make no claim that the Bible is inerrantly ghost written by God.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Greatest I am, posted 06-06-2015 10:30 AM Greatest I am has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 66 of 375 (758981)
06-06-2015 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Greatest I am
06-06-2015 5:19 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
I will try to educate.
The Bible like so may collections is filled with contradictions, fantasy, as well as reflections of the reality, politics and conceptions of the period when they were written. But Bibles, or Qur'an, cannot discriminate. They are books and books can only be enemies to the totally ignorant. No book has ever hit someone, discriminated against someone. Books are objects.
What is important is what people do.
People can oppress, discriminate or enable and elevate. Christians, like any other group can do both.
In reality Christianity is what Christians do. We can elect a woman Presiding Bishop and we did. We can bless and recognize same sex marriages and we do.
But it is the State, not Christianity, that governs and creates the laws, rules and regulations that discriminate or integrate. No one in the US is dependent on any religion to get married or a job or to determine rights. Christianity cannot create any marriage not sanctioned by the State.
That is reality.
So, in the US, it does not appear that Christianity discriminates against either women or gays.
Some Christians may, some Chapters of Club Christian may, but that is also true of Lions or Elks or motorcycle clubs or most any association.
Only a fool finds the Bible or Qur'an an enemy and such folk should be pitied but tolerated.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Greatest I am, posted 06-06-2015 5:19 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Greatest I am, posted 06-07-2015 9:41 AM jar has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 67 of 375 (758989)
06-06-2015 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Greatest I am
06-06-2015 5:25 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
Bare lilnks are bad debate form. It is your job to sketch out the argument yourself.
I watched some of the video and found it to present a false idea of the Bible. I'm sure men DID misuse the Bible against women, but that's a characteristic of fallen man, not the Bible's fault. Yes, women were made FOR man but that is not subjugation, it's role and not oppressive in itself. When God later says your husband will rule over you, THAT's the punishment for the Fall. There is no being ruled or subjugated in simply being made FOR man.
ABE: You are apparently right about the suffragettes' objection to the Bible, however misguided, but there's plenty in the Bible that should support women's rights, and I'm sure some did use it rightly for that purpose. /ABE
If you aren't a believer, which you obviously aren't, you'll get all of this wrong as the video does and nothing I say will make a difference.
Your other link doesn't deserve even the glance I gave it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Greatest I am, posted 06-06-2015 5:25 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Greatest I am, posted 06-07-2015 9:45 AM Faith has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 68 of 375 (758993)
06-07-2015 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by GDR
06-06-2015 5:23 PM


GDR writes:
Of course there is evidence. That Gospels are evidence and the start of the Christian church is evidence. Is it conclusive? No. You can choose to accept it or reject it.
You do understand that something written in a book by unknown authors and not supported by any other evidence is not evidence of it being true?
What is the evidence that the Big Bang or the process of evolution are the result of a infinite string of mindless processes? There is no evidence nor philosophical basis for believing that either.
The evidence for both being natural processes, not interfered with by any magical deity is firstly the evidence that we've discussed here ad nausium - the fossil record, genetics, hierarchical descent, natural selection, cosmic ray background, universe expansion etc etc. - and secondly the total absence of any sign of a God anywhere in the process.
Well first off, if God decided to send Himself to Earth it rather begs the question of who Jesus was praying to.
If you're suggesting that it's absurd, I'm with you.
There is a difference between God physically showing as compared to having His nature perfectly embodied in a human being.
Really? In fiction maybe. it's a funny kind of human that can raise people from the dead and turn water into wine.
Most of the prophesies were about the fall of Jerusalem. It didn't take supernatural knowledge to know that if you kept up the aggression against the Romans they would do what they always did, and for that matter it did happen within the life times of many in that generation.
I'm certainly not going to ague against your view that the prophesies - which are supposed to be proofs that the Jesus character was someone special - are nothing of the sort.
Yes there were some that thought that time would end in their life times but there have always been those that believed that. We do know that life in the world as we know it will end at some point, so we will see at that time whether or not there is re-creation of this world or not.
I'm being a little more exact than that - I'm referring directly to what the Jesus character is reported as saying in your book.
33so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away
Funy how we can pick and choose, rationalise and equivocate.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by GDR, posted 06-06-2015 5:23 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by GDR, posted 06-07-2015 5:52 PM Tangle has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 69 of 375 (758996)
06-07-2015 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by jar
06-06-2015 5:43 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
jar
You are either a fool or a blind mind.
Catholics split over church's campaign against same-sex marriage - CNN.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqN8EYIIR3g&feature=related
Should we make sure that every American READS Mein Kampf?
Books don't discriminate.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by jar, posted 06-06-2015 5:43 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 06-07-2015 10:06 AM Greatest I am has not replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 70 of 375 (758997)
06-07-2015 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Faith
06-06-2015 10:35 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
Faith
"Yes, women were made FOR man but that is not subjugation, it's role and not oppressive in itself."
So being owned is not subjugation or oppression.
Slaves will be happy to hear that.
Thanks for showing us how your religion has corrupted your morals.
Regards
DL
Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 06-06-2015 10:35 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Faith, posted 06-07-2015 3:23 PM Greatest I am has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 71 of 375 (758998)
06-07-2015 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Greatest I am
06-07-2015 9:41 AM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
GIA writes:
You are either a fool or a blind mind.
Roman Catholicism is not Christianity nor does their stance on same-sex marriages or women in the priesthood or birth control or any other subject discriminate against anyone in the US that does not wish to be a member of that Chapter of Club Christian.
Private organizations have the right to create their own bylaws and thank God, in the US there is also a right of free association.
GIA writes:
Should we make sure that every American READS Mein Kampf?
We should certainly encourage it although it is without a doubt one of the most boring books I have ever suffered though just as we should encourage everyone to read the writings of Kafka, Tolstoy, Kipling, Twain, O'Henry, the Dumas', Yeatman, Trotsky and many, many others.
GIA writes:
Books don't discriminate.
Correct. A book is an inanimate object.
I hope this has been informative.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Greatest I am, posted 06-07-2015 9:41 AM Greatest I am has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 72 of 375 (758999)
06-07-2015 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Greatest I am
06-06-2015 3:27 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
Greatest I am writes:
Humble is overrated.
Humility is overrated by the arrogant. Oddly enough, arrogance is associated with ignorance more often than it is with gnowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Greatest I am, posted 06-06-2015 3:27 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Greatest I am, posted 06-07-2015 4:04 PM ringo has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 73 of 375 (759003)
06-07-2015 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Greatest I am
06-07-2015 9:45 AM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
So being owned is not subjugation or oppression.
In this fallen world it is very hard to consider that it might be a desirable state. Think of being owned by someone who loves you with complete devotion and a true appreciation of your qualities, wants only what makes you happy and fulfilled, and furthers your talents and abilities -- which is what the word "husband" means. Devoting yourself to that kind of husband would be sheer joy.
Unfortunately fallenness has warped us all so we'll never know how blessed we'd all have been under the original Creation.
And by the way, "my" religion explains everything and everybody, including you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Greatest I am, posted 06-07-2015 9:45 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Greatest I am, posted 06-07-2015 4:11 PM Faith has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 74 of 375 (759005)
06-07-2015 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by ringo
06-07-2015 2:17 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
ringo
Not by the intelligent.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by ringo, posted 06-07-2015 2:17 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by ringo, posted 06-08-2015 11:41 AM Greatest I am has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 75 of 375 (759006)
06-07-2015 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Faith
06-07-2015 3:23 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
Faith
Good.
Explain why you see a fallen world when your God is said to produce all things perfect.
Also explain why the myth Christianity usurped from the Jews, that saw Eden as man's elevation, and changed that elevation to the fall you think you see.
I also track markers for evil. All those I track are the best we have ever enjoyed. Death by violence, theft, rape, slavery, all these are statistically at the best level we have ever enjoyed.
Where do you see a fallen world and why do you not see God's kingdom here the way I do?
Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is
in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they
say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will
precede you. Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is
outside of you. [Those who] become acquainted with [themselves]
will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you
will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living
Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty
and it is you who are that poverty."
Why do you live in such poverty?
Why do you deny God his perfect works?
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect:
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Faith, posted 06-07-2015 3:23 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 06-07-2015 10:18 PM Greatest I am has replied

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