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Author Topic:   Jihadists must die, --- but our real enemies are the Qur’an and Bible.
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 76 of 375 (759008)
06-07-2015 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Tangle
06-07-2015 2:15 AM


Tangle writes:
You do understand that something written in a book by unknown authors and not supported by any other evidence is not evidence of it being true?
I made no claim that it was. We all make up our own mind about what we believe. However, the fact that a man crucified largely for making messianic claims relatively quickly gained a substantial following is evidence although certainly not proof. There were many others in a roughly 200 year period that made messianic claims as well, many of them actually having some military success, and when they were put to death their movement died with them, or else took on a new leader.
Tangle writes:
The evidence for both being natural processes, not interfered with by any magical deity is firstly the evidence that we've discussed here ad nausium - the fossil record, genetics, hierarchical descent, natural selection, cosmic ray background, universe expansion etc etc. - and secondly the total absence of any sign of a God anywhere in the process.
..and ad nauseum it has been repeated that somehow those processes came into existence. The question is whether or not there is an intelligent or a mindless basis for their existence.
Tangle writes:
If you're suggesting that it's absurd, I'm with you.
You had essentially made claim that God sent himself down to Earth to get himself killed. I simply pointed out that your version of Christianity is not consistent with the Gospel accounts.
Tangle writes:
Really? In fiction maybe. it's a funny kind of human that can raise people from the dead and turn water into wine.
As far as the miracles are concerned it would be God that performed them in response to Jesus.
Tangle writes:
I'm being a little more exact than that - I'm referring directly to what the Jesus character is reported as saying in your book.
33so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away
Here is the full text.
quote:
1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 "Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down." 3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" 4 Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ, ' and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains. 9 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. 15 "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time. 26 "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. 29 "Immediately after the distress of those days " 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' 30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 32 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
The first part is obviously about the fall of Jerusalem with people running for the hills etc. The part of the "Son of Man" coming is an obvious reference to Daniel 7 where the "Son of Man" is brought to the Father. That passage is not about Jesus coming to Earth but about Jesus coming to the Father.
When Jesus speaks about the fall of Jerusalem He is speaking prophetically, and when it happens as it did in 70 AD, then that along with the resurrection will vindicate His life and message and that message will go out to the nations.
Tangle writes:
Funy how we can pick and choose, rationalise and equivocate.
That isn't it at all. That is the strawman that you set up by insisting that the Bible should be read as one book with all of it being equally valid. We have the gift of being able to reason, and we have generations of the reasoning of others to learn from as well. I choose to interpret the Bible largely through the lens of what I can discern about the life and teaching of Jesus from the NT while using the OT to help me understand Him. knowing that He was a 1st century Jew very much immersed in it's teachings and culture. We don't have certainty but we all ultimately all choose what we believe with the only certainty being that we could be wrong.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Tangle, posted 06-07-2015 2:15 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Tangle, posted 06-08-2015 6:35 AM GDR has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 77 of 375 (759009)
06-07-2015 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Greatest I am
06-07-2015 4:11 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
Faith
Good.
Explain why you see a fallen world when your God is said to produce all things perfect.
First of all we derive it from the Fall as reported in the Bible. I wouldn't have "seen" it until I knew about that, but as a matter of fact when I first understood the idea it was a great revelation to me that explains all the misery in this world, that otherwise had no explanation until then. How else understand all the suffering, the wars, the cruelty, the abuse of each other, the basic selfishness in all of us? To me the Fall makes sense of this entire miserable world. If this is a "perfect" world I wouldn't want to see an imperfect one.
God created all things perfect; humanity brought about the Fall.
Also explain why the myth Christianity usurped from the Jews, that saw Eden as man's elevation, and changed that elevation to the fall you think you see.
Well, the Jews don't understand their own scriptures, as the New Testament reveals. They missed their Messiah and they miss everything else as well. All of their scriptures point to Jesus as Jesus Himself said, but they think the story of Israel is all about them. Some of it is about them, they will play a big part at the very end, and eventually they will have their eyes opened to see their Messiah as well but for now they are the blind leading the blind.
I also track markers for evil. All those I track are the best we have ever enjoyed. Death by violence, theft, rape, slavery, all these are statistically at the best level we have ever enjoyed.
I have NO idea what that means. As I say above, I think all those things are explained only by the Fall, which deprived us of our original life in God and made sinners of us all. In the original created world none of those miseries could have existed at any "level," and when Jesus comes again to restore all things they will never exist again for those who follow Him.
Where do you see a fallen world and why do you not see God's kingdom here the way I do?
See above.
Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is
in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they
say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will
precede you. Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is
outside of you. [Those who] become acquainted with [themselves]
will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you
will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living
Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty
and it is you who are that poverty."
That is very far from the spirit of the Bible so I assume it is a Gnostic text. Are you aware that Gnosticism is condemned in the Bible? The Sons of God are those who put all their trust in Christ for salvation through His death to pay for our sins.
Why do you live in such poverty?
Why do you deny God his perfect works?
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect:
HIS work is certainly perfect, but sin is OUR work and we've made a mess of this planet because of it.
I could ask you: Why do you persist in sin when you could be cleansed and become one of the sons of God?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Greatest I am, posted 06-07-2015 4:11 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Coyote, posted 06-07-2015 10:28 PM Faith has replied
 Message 86 by Tangle, posted 06-08-2015 1:39 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 94 by Greatest I am, posted 06-08-2015 10:39 AM Faith has not replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 78 of 375 (759010)
06-07-2015 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Faith
06-07-2015 10:18 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
Sin lies only in hurting others unnecessarily. All other sins are invented nonsense.
Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love, 1973
And the idea of a "Fall" or "original sin" that condemns all of mankind to some sort of bad karma is the most ridiculous and evil idea ever cooked up, out of whole cloth, by the shaman class.
Another view:
What is the nature of the guilt that your teachers call his Original Sin? What are the evils man acquired when he fell from a state they consider perfection? Their myth declares that he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledgehe acquired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowledge of good and evilhe became a moral being. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his laborhe became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desirehe acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joyall the cardinal values of his existence. It is not his vices that their myth of man’s fall is designed to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his guilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he wasthat robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without lovehe was not man.
Ayn Rand

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 06-07-2015 10:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 06-07-2015 10:40 PM Coyote has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 79 of 375 (759012)
06-07-2015 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Coyote
06-07-2015 10:28 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
And the idea of a "Fall" or "original sin" that condemns all of mankind to some sort of bad karma is the most ridiculous and evil idea ever cooked up, out of whole cloth, by the shaman class.
So war, murder, exploitation, abuse, rape, slavery, etc etc etc aren't our fault?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Coyote, posted 06-07-2015 10:28 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 06-08-2015 8:00 AM Faith has not replied
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anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 80 of 375 (759013)
06-07-2015 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Faith
06-06-2015 3:52 PM


Gay Marriage in History
Faith writes:
But I HAVE to say that imputing a rejection of gay marriage to religion is historically bonkers. NO CULTURE EVER even considered gay marriage; it's a complete innovation that flies in the fact of plain COMMON SENSE, having NOTHING to do with religion though it is being made a very convenient excuse for attacking Christianity in particular.
Wrong again Faith.
From the Wiki:
quote:
A same-sex union was known in Ancient Greece and Rome,[2] ancient Mesopotamia,[3] in some regions of China, such as Fujian province, and at certain times in ancient European history.[4] These same-sex unions continued until Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire. A law in the Theodosian Code (C. Th. 9.7.3) was issued in 342 AD by the Christian emperors Constantius II and Constans, which prohibited same-sex marriage in ancient Rome and ordered that those who were so married were to be executed. [5]
If same sex marriage did not exist in the Roman Empire, why would Constantius II and Constans feel compelled to make it illegal not long after their father, Constantine, made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire?
Have you read Suetonius, Tacitus, or Cassius Dio, etc.?
I have.
Also:
quote:
In North America, among the Native Americans societies, same-sex unions have taken place with persons known as Two-Spirit types. These are individuals who fulfill one of many mixed gender roles in First Nations and Native American tribes. "In many tribes, individuals who entered into same-sex relationships were considered holy and treated with utmost respect and acceptance," according to anthropologist Brian Gilley.[44]
Have you read Curtis, Black Elk, etc. or taken grad classes in history?
I have.
I already know your response, if there is one at all. It will be denial accompanied by a pathological insistence you are never wrong about anything, just as in the case of Martin Luther's blatant and historically verified antisemitism.
Edited by anglagard, : Add title and remove unplayable video.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 06-06-2015 3:52 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Faith, posted 06-07-2015 11:30 PM anglagard has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 81 of 375 (759014)
06-07-2015 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by anglagard
06-07-2015 11:18 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
"Same sex relationships" or "unions" even officialized in some sense, are not marriage. And so what if a few existed in the morally rotten Roman Empire? Nero mocked the institution by marrying some homosexuals. I'm talking about the vast majority of cultures on earth for pete's sake, where such a thing was never heard of and would have been repudiated, WITHOUT RELIGION HAVING A SAY IN ANY OF IT. Which has nothing to do with homosexual unions without marriage which have always existed.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by anglagard, posted 06-07-2015 11:18 PM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by anglagard, posted 06-07-2015 11:37 PM Faith has replied

anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


(1)
Message 82 of 375 (759015)
06-07-2015 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Faith
06-07-2015 11:30 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
Faith writes:
"Same sex relationships" or "unions" even officialized in some sense, are not marriage. And so what if a few existed in the morally rotten Roman Empire?
I can see how you manage to argue the Bible contains no contradictions when you even manage to contradict yourself in only two sentences.
Edited by anglagard, : grammar and misplaced /
Edited by anglagard, : No reason given.
Edited by anglagard, : No reason given.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Faith, posted 06-07-2015 11:30 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 06-07-2015 11:53 PM anglagard has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 83 of 375 (759017)
06-07-2015 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by anglagard
06-07-2015 11:37 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
There are no contradictions in the Bible and there isn't a contradiction in my post either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by anglagard, posted 06-07-2015 11:37 PM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by anglagard, posted 06-08-2015 12:05 AM Faith has replied

anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


(1)
Message 84 of 375 (759018)
06-08-2015 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Faith
06-07-2015 11:53 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
You said:
Faith writes:
"Same sex relationships" or "unions" even officialized in some sense, are not marriage. And so what if a few existed in the morally rotten Roman Empire?
Isn't that what those Roman marriages "Same sex relationships, even officialized in some sense" exactly what they are? And right after that to admit "a few existed" not a contradiction of "are not marriage?"

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 06-07-2015 11:53 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 06-08-2015 12:24 AM anglagard has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 85 of 375 (759020)
06-08-2015 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by anglagard
06-08-2015 12:05 AM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
I'm sure I could have said it better, but even an "officialized" union could just be an arrangement like the civil union some of us have wanted instead of marriage. Beyond that I meant to say so what if a few "MARRIAGES" in the proper sense existed....
The whole point is you are talking about very rare events in abnormal cultures and I was referring to the vast majority of human cultures in all times and places. And you also used language like "relationships" and "unions" which do not imply actual marriage and which nobody has doubted have always existed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by anglagard, posted 06-08-2015 12:05 AM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by anglagard, posted 06-08-2015 2:13 AM Faith has not replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 86 of 375 (759022)
06-08-2015 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Faith
06-07-2015 10:18 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
Faith writes:
First of all we derive it from the Fall as reported in the Bible. I wouldn't have "seen" it until I knew about that, but as a matter of fact when I first understood the idea it was a great revelation to me that explains all the misery in this world, that otherwise had no explanation until then. How else understand all the suffering, the wars, the cruelty, the abuse of each other, the basic selfishness in all of us?
It's quite easily explained by the fact that we have evolved from animals that die and that are forced to compete with each other and against other species for their survival. We are only a few hundred thousand years passed being a creature that lived by pure instinct with no concept of morality or self awareness.
We don't need your fairy tales to explain our plight anymore Faith, we have the real story.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 06-07-2015 10:18 PM Faith has not replied

anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


(1)
Message 87 of 375 (759023)
06-08-2015 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Faith
06-08-2015 12:24 AM


Transparent
Faith writes:
NO CULTURE EVER even considered gay marriage
Faith writes:
And so what if a few existed in the morally rotten Roman Empire?
No contradiction here, cause Faith says so.
Faith writes:
The whole point is you are talking about very rare events in abnormal cultures and I was referring to the vast majority of human cultures in all times and places.
As the church lady on Saturday Night Live said "aren't we special."
It's your abnormal culture as it is mine. Are you actually asserting Western Civilization is not a descendent of Greece and Rome?
Point out a direct counterexample to "NO CULTURE EVER even considered gay marriage" and what is the response? Simply call the culture which had so much influence over early Christianity and in fact made it their state religion "debased." Other cultures have what is essentially gay marriage? No problem, simply say it is not the equivalent of marriage. Point out you contradict yourself, no problem, oh look at the kitty.
You may think you are clever by moving the goalposts, deciding you are the arbiter of English language instead of the Oxford English Dictionary, and have elected yourself to speak for all cultures for all time, but all of us with experience know the truth about your transparent tactics.
quote:
I already know your response, if there is one at all. It will be denial accompanied by a pathological insistence you are never wrong about anything, just as in the case of Martin Luther's blatant and historically verified antisemitism.
I must be a prophet as I can predict the future.
Edited by anglagard, : left out a letter

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 06-08-2015 12:24 AM Faith has not replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 88 of 375 (759024)
06-08-2015 6:35 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by GDR
06-07-2015 5:52 PM


GDR writes:
We all make up our own mind about what we believe.
That's the problem in one. Making up your mind with no more than wishful thinking in it leads to these sorts of conclusions.
However, the fact that a man crucified largely for making messianic claims relatively quickly gained a substantial following is evidence although certainly not proof. There were many others in a roughly 200 year period that made messianic claims as well, many of them actually having some military success, and when they were put to death their movement died with them, or else took on a new leader.
That's no good at all is it? There's no proof that Jesus actually existed let alone was crucified and returned from the dead. The fact that a religion called Christianity now exists is not proof of anything other than that. It was brought into existence by a powerful emperor for political reasons and has continued as a major political and power source ever since. Without the wealth and power infrastructure it generated for a few over the centuries it would have fizzled out like the many other dead belief systems.
..and ad nauseum it has been repeated that somehow those processes came into existence. The question is whether or not there is an intelligent or a mindless basis for their existence.
No - that's an old fallacy that you really should not keep repeating. Whether or not there's a intelligence responsible for kicking off the universe is a separate issue to whether any man-made religious ideas are true or not.
You had essentially made claim that God sent himself down to Earth to get himself killed. I simply pointed out that your version of Christianity is not consistent with the Gospel accounts.
The difficulty atheists have arguing with Christians is we never know what the individual Christian believes is in the bible or not. The consensus seems to be that god sent his son - whatever that means - to earth. He was mortal but could do magic like a god. He was killed to save us - ffs why?? (It's just the pagan sacrifice stuff regurgitated.) Then he pops back to life etc etc. I'm afraid it's just all too damn silly to go further with really.
The first part is obviously about the fall of Jerusalem with people running for the hills etc. The part of the "Son of Man" coming is an obvious reference to Daniel 7 where the "Son of Man" is brought to the Father. That passage is not about Jesus coming to Earth but about Jesus coming to the Father.
When Jesus speaks about the fall of Jerusalem He is speaking prophetically, and when it happens as it did in 70 AD, then that along with the resurrection will vindicate His life and message and that message will go out to the nations.
It's the same problem of choosing what to believe. If you want the various defences put forward by the various Christian groups you'll find them all here:
Did Jesus Wrongly Predict a First Century Return in Matthew 24:34?
But in the end, it's very, very clear that everyone around him believed it to mean that he was coming back soon. The words say what they mean. Even CS Lewis couldn't escape it with all his apologetic
Say what you like," we shall be told [by some critics], "the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, 'This generation shall not pass till all these things be done.' And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else."
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by GDR, posted 06-07-2015 5:52 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by GDR, posted 06-11-2015 7:49 PM Tangle has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 89 of 375 (759037)
06-08-2015 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Faith
06-07-2015 10:40 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
Faith writes:
So war, murder, exploitation, abuse, rape, slavery, etc etc etc aren't our fault?
They are absolutely our fault and not the fault of some imaginary Fall brought about by some serpent.
The "Fall" is just another example of cop-out; I can't help it we are fallen.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 06-07-2015 10:40 PM Faith has not replied

saab93f
Member (Idle past 1394 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


Message 90 of 375 (759038)
06-08-2015 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by MrHambre
06-05-2015 6:18 AM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
I really do not see problems with calling spade a...spade.
The central tenets of all Abrahamic religions are delusions and the adherents fortunately mostly benignly delusional. Then again I personally am struggling between respecting people's beliefs and the desire to tell how there is not a shred of evidence either way.
Sam Harris hurts a lot of theists because he does not sugar-coat things. Hurting people per se is not wise nor something that should be actively pursued IMHO but it cannot be completely avoided. I think that the main reason for outright hate towards atheists is because the vocal ones cause the theists to a total dichotomy - either the 4 Horsemen are right or theyre evil communists trying to take liberty away.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by MrHambre, posted 06-05-2015 6:18 AM MrHambre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by MrHambre, posted 06-08-2015 9:02 AM saab93f has not replied
 Message 92 by jar, posted 06-08-2015 9:40 AM saab93f has replied
 Message 97 by Greatest I am, posted 06-08-2015 11:08 AM saab93f has not replied

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