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Author | Topic: Jihadists must die, --- but our real enemies are the Qur’an and Bible. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes:
I made no claim that it was. We all make up our own mind about what we believe. However, the fact that a man crucified largely for making messianic claims relatively quickly gained a substantial following is evidence although certainly not proof. There were many others in a roughly 200 year period that made messianic claims as well, many of them actually having some military success, and when they were put to death their movement died with them, or else took on a new leader.
You do understand that something written in a book by unknown authors and not supported by any other evidence is not evidence of it being true? Tangle writes:
..and ad nauseum it has been repeated that somehow those processes came into existence. The question is whether or not there is an intelligent or a mindless basis for their existence.
The evidence for both being natural processes, not interfered with by any magical deity is firstly the evidence that we've discussed here ad nausium - the fossil record, genetics, hierarchical descent, natural selection, cosmic ray background, universe expansion etc etc. - and secondly the total absence of any sign of a God anywhere in the process. Tangle writes: You had essentially made claim that God sent himself down to Earth to get himself killed. I simply pointed out that your version of Christianity is not consistent with the Gospel accounts.
If you're suggesting that it's absurd, I'm with you. Tangle writes: Really? In fiction maybe. it's a funny kind of human that can raise people from the dead and turn water into wine. As far as the miracles are concerned it would be God that performed them in response to Jesus.
Tangle writes: I'm being a little more exact than that - I'm referring directly to what the Jesus character is reported as saying in your book. 33so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away Here is the full text. quote: The first part is obviously about the fall of Jerusalem with people running for the hills etc. The part of the "Son of Man" coming is an obvious reference to Daniel 7 where the "Son of Man" is brought to the Father. That passage is not about Jesus coming to Earth but about Jesus coming to the Father. When Jesus speaks about the fall of Jerusalem He is speaking prophetically, and when it happens as it did in 70 AD, then that along with the resurrection will vindicate His life and message and that message will go out to the nations.
Tangle writes: That isn't it at all. That is the strawman that you set up by insisting that the Bible should be read as one book with all of it being equally valid. We have the gift of being able to reason, and we have generations of the reasoning of others to learn from as well. I choose to interpret the Bible largely through the lens of what I can discern about the life and teaching of Jesus from the NT while using the OT to help me understand Him. knowing that He was a 1st century Jew very much immersed in it's teachings and culture. We don't have certainty but we all ultimately all choose what we believe with the only certainty being that we could be wrong. Funy how we can pick and choose, rationalise and equivocate.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Faith Good. Explain why you see a fallen world when your God is said to produce all things perfect. First of all we derive it from the Fall as reported in the Bible. I wouldn't have "seen" it until I knew about that, but as a matter of fact when I first understood the idea it was a great revelation to me that explains all the misery in this world, that otherwise had no explanation until then. How else understand all the suffering, the wars, the cruelty, the abuse of each other, the basic selfishness in all of us? To me the Fall makes sense of this entire miserable world. If this is a "perfect" world I wouldn't want to see an imperfect one. God created all things perfect; humanity brought about the Fall.
Also explain why the myth Christianity usurped from the Jews, that saw Eden as man's elevation, and changed that elevation to the fall you think you see. Well, the Jews don't understand their own scriptures, as the New Testament reveals. They missed their Messiah and they miss everything else as well. All of their scriptures point to Jesus as Jesus Himself said, but they think the story of Israel is all about them. Some of it is about them, they will play a big part at the very end, and eventually they will have their eyes opened to see their Messiah as well but for now they are the blind leading the blind.
I also track markers for evil. All those I track are the best we have ever enjoyed. Death by violence, theft, rape, slavery, all these are statistically at the best level we have ever enjoyed. I have NO idea what that means. As I say above, I think all those things are explained only by the Fall, which deprived us of our original life in God and made sinners of us all. In the original created world none of those miseries could have existed at any "level," and when Jesus comes again to restore all things they will never exist again for those who follow Him.
Where do you see a fallen world and why do you not see God's kingdom here the way I do? See above.
Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you. Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you. [Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty." That is very far from the spirit of the Bible so I assume it is a Gnostic text. Are you aware that Gnosticism is condemned in the Bible? The Sons of God are those who put all their trust in Christ for salvation through His death to pay for our sins.
Why do you live in such poverty? Why do you deny God his perfect works? Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: HIS work is certainly perfect, but sin is OUR work and we've made a mess of this planet because of it. I could ask you: Why do you persist in sin when you could be cleansed and become one of the sons of God? Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2127 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Sin lies only in hurting others unnecessarily. All other sins are invented nonsense. And the idea of a "Fall" or "original sin" that condemns all of mankind to some sort of bad karma is the most ridiculous and evil idea ever cooked up, out of whole cloth, by the shaman class. Another view: What is the nature of the guilt that your teachers call his Original Sin? What are the evils man acquired when he fell from a state they consider perfection? Their myth declares that he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledgehe acquired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowledge of good and evilhe became a moral being. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his laborhe became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desirehe acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joyall the cardinal values of his existence. It is not his vices that their myth of man’s fall is designed to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his guilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he wasthat robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without lovehe was not man. Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
And the idea of a "Fall" or "original sin" that condemns all of mankind to some sort of bad karma is the most ridiculous and evil idea ever cooked up, out of whole cloth, by the shaman class. So war, murder, exploitation, abuse, rape, slavery, etc etc etc aren't our fault? Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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anglagard Member (Idle past 858 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
Faith writes: But I HAVE to say that imputing a rejection of gay marriage to religion is historically bonkers. NO CULTURE EVER even considered gay marriage; it's a complete innovation that flies in the fact of plain COMMON SENSE, having NOTHING to do with religion though it is being made a very convenient excuse for attacking Christianity in particular. Wrong again Faith. From the Wiki: quote: If same sex marriage did not exist in the Roman Empire, why would Constantius II and Constans feel compelled to make it illegal not long after their father, Constantine, made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire? Have you read Suetonius, Tacitus, or Cassius Dio, etc.? I have. Also:
quote: Have you read Curtis, Black Elk, etc. or taken grad classes in history? I have. I already know your response, if there is one at all. It will be denial accompanied by a pathological insistence you are never wrong about anything, just as in the case of Martin Luther's blatant and historically verified antisemitism. Edited by anglagard, : Add title and remove unplayable video.Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
"Same sex relationships" or "unions" even officialized in some sense, are not marriage. And so what if a few existed in the morally rotten Roman Empire? Nero mocked the institution by marrying some homosexuals. I'm talking about the vast majority of cultures on earth for pete's sake, where such a thing was never heard of and would have been repudiated, WITHOUT RELIGION HAVING A SAY IN ANY OF IT. Which has nothing to do with homosexual unions without marriage which have always existed.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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anglagard Member (Idle past 858 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined:
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Faith writes: "Same sex relationships" or "unions" even officialized in some sense, are not marriage. And so what if a few existed in the morally rotten Roman Empire? I can see how you manage to argue the Bible contains no contradictions when you even manage to contradict yourself in only two sentences. Edited by anglagard, : grammar and misplaced / Edited by anglagard, : No reason given. Edited by anglagard, : No reason given.Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
There are no contradictions in the Bible and there isn't a contradiction in my post either.
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anglagard Member (Idle past 858 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined:
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You said:
Faith writes: "Same sex relationships" or "unions" even officialized in some sense, are not marriage. And so what if a few existed in the morally rotten Roman Empire? Isn't that what those Roman marriages "Same sex relationships, even officialized in some sense" exactly what they are? And right after that to admit "a few existed" not a contradiction of "are not marriage?"Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I'm sure I could have said it better, but even an "officialized" union could just be an arrangement like the civil union some of us have wanted instead of marriage. Beyond that I meant to say so what if a few "MARRIAGES" in the proper sense existed....
The whole point is you are talking about very rare events in abnormal cultures and I was referring to the vast majority of human cultures in all times and places. And you also used language like "relationships" and "unions" which do not imply actual marriage and which nobody has doubted have always existed.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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Faith writes: First of all we derive it from the Fall as reported in the Bible. I wouldn't have "seen" it until I knew about that, but as a matter of fact when I first understood the idea it was a great revelation to me that explains all the misery in this world, that otherwise had no explanation until then. How else understand all the suffering, the wars, the cruelty, the abuse of each other, the basic selfishness in all of us? It's quite easily explained by the fact that we have evolved from animals that die and that are forced to compete with each other and against other species for their survival. We are only a few hundred thousand years passed being a creature that lived by pure instinct with no concept of morality or self awareness. We don't need your fairy tales to explain our plight anymore Faith, we have the real story.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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anglagard Member (Idle past 858 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined:
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Faith writes: NO CULTURE EVER even considered gay marriage Faith writes: And so what if a few existed in the morally rotten Roman Empire? No contradiction here, cause Faith says so.
Faith writes: The whole point is you are talking about very rare events in abnormal cultures and I was referring to the vast majority of human cultures in all times and places. As the church lady on Saturday Night Live said "aren't we special." It's your abnormal culture as it is mine. Are you actually asserting Western Civilization is not a descendent of Greece and Rome? Point out a direct counterexample to "NO CULTURE EVER even considered gay marriage" and what is the response? Simply call the culture which had so much influence over early Christianity and in fact made it their state religion "debased." Other cultures have what is essentially gay marriage? No problem, simply say it is not the equivalent of marriage. Point out you contradict yourself, no problem, oh look at the kitty. You may think you are clever by moving the goalposts, deciding you are the arbiter of English language instead of the Oxford English Dictionary, and have elected yourself to speak for all cultures for all time, but all of us with experience know the truth about your transparent tactics.
quote: I must be a prophet as I can predict the future. Edited by anglagard, : left out a letterRead not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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GDR writes: We all make up our own mind about what we believe. That's the problem in one. Making up your mind with no more than wishful thinking in it leads to these sorts of conclusions.
However, the fact that a man crucified largely for making messianic claims relatively quickly gained a substantial following is evidence although certainly not proof. There were many others in a roughly 200 year period that made messianic claims as well, many of them actually having some military success, and when they were put to death their movement died with them, or else took on a new leader. That's no good at all is it? There's no proof that Jesus actually existed let alone was crucified and returned from the dead. The fact that a religion called Christianity now exists is not proof of anything other than that. It was brought into existence by a powerful emperor for political reasons and has continued as a major political and power source ever since. Without the wealth and power infrastructure it generated for a few over the centuries it would have fizzled out like the many other dead belief systems.
..and ad nauseum it has been repeated that somehow those processes came into existence. The question is whether or not there is an intelligent or a mindless basis for their existence. No - that's an old fallacy that you really should not keep repeating. Whether or not there's a intelligence responsible for kicking off the universe is a separate issue to whether any man-made religious ideas are true or not.
You had essentially made claim that God sent himself down to Earth to get himself killed. I simply pointed out that your version of Christianity is not consistent with the Gospel accounts. The difficulty atheists have arguing with Christians is we never know what the individual Christian believes is in the bible or not. The consensus seems to be that god sent his son - whatever that means - to earth. He was mortal but could do magic like a god. He was killed to save us - ffs why?? (It's just the pagan sacrifice stuff regurgitated.) Then he pops back to life etc etc. I'm afraid it's just all too damn silly to go further with really.
The first part is obviously about the fall of Jerusalem with people running for the hills etc. The part of the "Son of Man" coming is an obvious reference to Daniel 7 where the "Son of Man" is brought to the Father. That passage is not about Jesus coming to Earth but about Jesus coming to the Father. When Jesus speaks about the fall of Jerusalem He is speaking prophetically, and when it happens as it did in 70 AD, then that along with the resurrection will vindicate His life and message and that message will go out to the nations. It's the same problem of choosing what to believe. If you want the various defences put forward by the various Christian groups you'll find them all here: Did Jesus Wrongly Predict a First Century Return in Matthew 24:34? But in the end, it's very, very clear that everyone around him believed it to mean that he was coming back soon. The words say what they mean. Even CS Lewis couldn't escape it with all his apologetic Say what you like," we shall be told [by some critics], "the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, 'This generation shall not pass till all these things be done.' And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else." Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Faith writes: So war, murder, exploitation, abuse, rape, slavery, etc etc etc aren't our fault?
They are absolutely our fault and not the fault of some imaginary Fall brought about by some serpent. The "Fall" is just another example of cop-out; I can't help it we are fallen.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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saab93f Member (Idle past 1415 days) Posts: 265 From: Finland Joined: |
I really do not see problems with calling spade a...spade.
The central tenets of all Abrahamic religions are delusions and the adherents fortunately mostly benignly delusional. Then again I personally am struggling between respecting people's beliefs and the desire to tell how there is not a shred of evidence either way. Sam Harris hurts a lot of theists because he does not sugar-coat things. Hurting people per se is not wise nor something that should be actively pursued IMHO but it cannot be completely avoided. I think that the main reason for outright hate towards atheists is because the vocal ones cause the theists to a total dichotomy - either the 4 Horsemen are right or theyre evil communists trying to take liberty away.
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