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Author Topic:   Jihadists must die, --- but our real enemies are the Qur’an and Bible.
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1383 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 91 of 375 (759039)
06-08-2015 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by saab93f
06-08-2015 8:16 AM


Flattening the Moral Landscape
I really do not see problems with calling spade a...spade.
Neither do I. That's why I mentioned that the hate-group tendencies of new atheism are annoying and counterproductive.
The central tenets of all Abrahamic religions are delusions and the adherents fortunately mostly benignly delusional. Then again I personally am struggling between respecting people's beliefs and the desire to tell how there is not a shred of evidence either way.
It sounds to me like respect might have lost the struggle. Does this stale rhetoric ever inspire constructive dialogue with believers? Is it intended to?
Back when I still believed internet slapfights could solve the world's problems (each to his own delusions), I spent a lot of time arguing with conspiracy theorists who would make declarations like, "There's not a shred of evidence that terrorists flew planes into the WTCs on 9/11!" Then they would handwave away whatever evidence people presented. Sorry if it's not a flattering comparison, but atheists are becoming the truthers of the culture wars; they're not interested in dialogue or understanding, they're just out to wind people up.
Sam Harris hurts a lot of theists because he does not sugar-coat things. Hurting people per se is not wise nor something that should be actively pursued IMHO but it cannot be completely avoided.
I mentioned in the post to which you're ostensibly replying that I have a problem with Sam Harris's oversimplified definition of religion, not his forthright tone. I think reducing religion to a mere set of literal beliefs people profess about the world is focusing exclusively on the least important aspect of religion; it makes no sense if he's trying to analyze and critique religion, but it makes perfect sense if he's pandering to a debate culture that likes things nice and simple.
I think that the main reason for outright hate towards atheists is because the vocal ones cause the theists to a total dichotomy - either the 4 Horsemen are right or theyre evil communists trying to take liberty away.
When we hate others, it's because we recognize their faults; when others hate us, it's because they resent our virtues. I'm not religious, but I have my reasons for finding fault with the new atheists, none of which have to do with their rightness. I deplore the bigotry, alarmism, and self-righteousness I hear coming from them as much as when I hear it coming from the religious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by saab93f, posted 06-08-2015 8:16 AM saab93f has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 92 of 375 (759042)
06-08-2015 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by saab93f
06-08-2015 8:16 AM


respect vs tolerance
The central tenets of all Abrahamic religions are delusions and the adherents fortunately mostly benignly delusional. Then again I personally am struggling between respecting people's beliefs and the desire to tell how there is not a shred of evidence either way.
As not just a theist but a Christian I cannot see any reason that anyone should respect my beliefs. I can see reasons that my beliefs should be tolerated as long as the do not justifiably infringe on others.
Let me expand somewhat.
I believe that there is a God and afterlife and that my behavior while living will be judged after death.
Whether or not that is an accurate reflection of reality is pretty irrelevant; if I try to behave while alive in a way that would be judged as acceptable but there is no judgement or life after death I will still have lived an acceptable life.
I am appalled by the "Jesus paid for our sins" brand of Christianity as a cheap conjob and more than worthless, it is destructive. I have no respect for that snake oil product but do tolerate it since, Thank God, in the US, "The Bible told me so" is not accepted as defense for antisocial behavior.
Beliefs do not deserve respect but I think they do deserve tolerance unless they infringe on others.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by saab93f, posted 06-08-2015 8:16 AM saab93f has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Jon, posted 06-08-2015 10:08 AM jar has seen this message but not replied
 Message 98 by Greatest I am, posted 06-08-2015 11:19 AM jar has replied
 Message 101 by MrHambre, posted 06-08-2015 12:32 PM jar has replied
 Message 114 by saab93f, posted 06-09-2015 3:57 AM jar has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 93 of 375 (759043)
06-08-2015 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
06-08-2015 9:40 AM


Re: respect vs tolerance
Thank God, in the US, "The Bible told me so" is not accepted as defense for antisocial behavior.
Except for politicians...

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 06-08-2015 9:40 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Greatest I am, posted 06-08-2015 11:23 AM Jon has seen this message but not replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 264 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 94 of 375 (759044)
06-08-2015 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Faith
06-07-2015 10:18 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
Faith
Your bible says that God's works are perfect and that that perfection cannot go to imperfection and always reproduces perfection.
If not then it opens the door to God creating imperfection and that is contrary to your scriptures.
You wrote.
"Well, the Jews don't understand their own scriptures, as the New Testament reveals."
My reply.
That was a really stupid reply.
You are firmly in your right wing literalist position and I cannot reason you out of something that you were never reasoned into and all you have is your blind faith.
Let me end with this.
Bill Moyers Journal . Watch & Listen | PBS
Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."
Please listen as to what is said about literal reading.
"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 06-07-2015 10:18 PM Faith has not replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 264 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 95 of 375 (759046)
06-08-2015 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Faith
06-07-2015 10:40 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
Faith
"So war, murder, exploitation, abuse, rape, slavery, etc etc etc aren't our fault?"
All sins are definitely our fault but you ignore who created our sin natures. Your God did.
I failed to engage your thinking out of your dogmatic box above but let me try to get you to think on this issue.
----------
Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or it’s all man’s fault.
That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."
But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.
If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.
Since we cannot help but sin, for God to punish us for only being able to follow the natures he created in us, God would be wrong and evil to punish us for being exactly what he created us to be.
Regards
DL

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 Message 79 by Faith, posted 06-07-2015 10:40 PM Faith has not replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 264 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 96 of 375 (759047)
06-08-2015 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Faith
06-06-2015 3:52 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
Faith
"But I HAVE to say that imputing a rejection of gay marriage to religion is historically bonkers. NO CULTURE EVER even considered gay marriage; it's a complete innovation that flies in the fact of plain COMMON SENSE, having NOTHING to do with religion though it is being made a very convenient excuse for attacking Christianity in particular. "
Let me just say that Gay marriage was a Christian invention.
WHEN SAME-SEX MARRIAGE WAS A CHRISTIAN RITE1
But that aside.
Your religion places love above all else.
Why is it that with gays, you put sex above love and would deny gays the ability to love to their fullest.
I have a look for you and this woman gives it to her Bishop. Have a look.
Catholics split over church's campaign against same-sex marriage - CNN.com
What right do you have to deny men and women the right to love as deeply as you think heterosexuals can?
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 06-06-2015 3:52 PM Faith has not replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 264 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


(1)
Message 97 of 375 (759048)
06-08-2015 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by saab93f
06-08-2015 8:16 AM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
saab93f
Most see atheists and others who attack foolish Christian beliefs as out to hurt. This is likely due to the hurt Christians put to them with their turn or burn type of abuse.
Christians think that atheists and others who attack foolish Christian beliefs are motivated by the hate that they have in their hearts for those not of their ilk.
I see atheists and others who attack foolish Christian beliefs as following one of the few worthy wisdom sayings in scriptures.
Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by saab93f, posted 06-08-2015 8:16 AM saab93f has not replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 264 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 98 of 375 (759049)
06-08-2015 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
06-08-2015 9:40 AM


Re: respect vs tolerance
Jar
"I am appalled by the "Jesus paid for our sins" brand of Christianity as a cheap conjob and more than worthless, it is destructive."
I speak to many Christians about that immoral belief they hold. Few, like you, say they are appalled by it. Good for you buddy.
The thing is, without the cross and vicarious redemption, Christianity has nothing to sell. To remain Christian they would have to become Jews and return to that vile demiurge Yahweh.
You would also have to take literal reading out of Christianity and doing so would be them admitting that their priests have been lying all these many years.
I don't think Christians are ready for the truth.
If you do not believe in the savior, do you believe you need saving at all?
If so then you are more like a Gnostic Christian and not a Christian.
Are you a Universalist or does hell exist for you?
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 06-08-2015 9:40 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by jar, posted 06-08-2015 1:50 PM Greatest I am has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 264 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 99 of 375 (759050)
06-08-2015 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Jon
06-08-2015 10:08 AM


Re: respect vs tolerance
Jon
True but look at the type of politician.
Wait for the last scene, and face. Duh + Duh.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjR7AWSmI6o
Regards
DL

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 Message 93 by Jon, posted 06-08-2015 10:08 AM Jon has seen this message but not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 100 of 375 (759052)
06-08-2015 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Greatest I am
06-07-2015 4:04 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
Greatest I am writes:
Not by the intelligent.
Intelligent people communicate in sentences.
You say, "Jihadists must die," but jihadidts want to die for their god. How is giving them exactly what they want intelligent?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Greatest I am, posted 06-07-2015 4:04 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Greatest I am, posted 06-08-2015 12:45 PM ringo has replied

MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1383 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 101 of 375 (759054)
06-08-2015 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
06-08-2015 9:40 AM


Re: respect vs tolerance
Beliefs do not deserve respect but I think they do deserve tolerance unless they infringe on others.
People should rethink the message board truism that "Beliefs don't deserve respect." At the end of the day, this is nothing more than a way to give oneself license to be as insulting and hurtful as possible, then dismiss any umbrage taken on the grounds that others shouldn't take criticism of their dearly held beliefs personally. There's something profoundly disingenuous about saying, "I wasn't ridiculing you, I was ridiculing everything you hold dear."
This isn't to say we shouldn't have discussions about politics, religion, sexuality, or any other subject that people take seriously. But we need to acknowledge that people identify strongly with these beliefs, and we don't need to pretend to be surprised when they react strongly against careless, unsympathetic criticism like being told their beliefs are delusions.
Edited by MrHambre, : Added last line

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 06-08-2015 9:40 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Greatest I am, posted 06-08-2015 12:50 PM MrHambre has replied
 Message 105 by Tangle, posted 06-08-2015 1:07 PM MrHambre has replied
 Message 111 by jar, posted 06-08-2015 1:55 PM MrHambre has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 264 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 102 of 375 (759055)
06-08-2015 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by ringo
06-08-2015 11:41 AM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
Ringo
Leaving them alive to keep killing would hardly be a good or intelligent idea.
I would prefer to convert/cure them of their foolish beliefs but that seems to be a loosing proposition thanks to their deep indoctrination/brain washing.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by ringo, posted 06-08-2015 11:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 06-08-2015 12:53 PM Greatest I am has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 264 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 103 of 375 (759057)
06-08-2015 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by MrHambre
06-08-2015 12:32 PM


Re: respect vs tolerance
MrHambre
But what if delusion is what they have?
How then can you tell them the truth without offending them
I have used this learned link but believers still take offence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNSe4Ff57n4&feature=playe...
If a believer, would that link insult you?
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by MrHambre, posted 06-08-2015 12:32 PM MrHambre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by MrHambre, posted 06-08-2015 1:17 PM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 107 by Faith, posted 06-08-2015 1:19 PM Greatest I am has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 104 of 375 (759059)
06-08-2015 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Greatest I am
06-08-2015 12:45 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
Greatest I am writes:
I would prefer to convert/cure them of their foolish beliefs but that seems to be a loosing proposition thanks to their deep indoctrination/brain washing.
But by killing them you're just encouraging more converts. You're not cleaning up the mess; you're just spreading the dirt around. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is closer to insanity than it is to intelligence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Greatest I am, posted 06-08-2015 12:45 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Greatest I am, posted 06-09-2015 6:46 PM ringo has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 105 of 375 (759060)
06-08-2015 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by MrHambre
06-08-2015 12:32 PM


Re: respect vs tolerance
MrHambre writes:
People should rethink the message board truism that "Beliefs don't deserve respect." At the end of the day, this is nothing more than a way to give oneself license to be as insulting and hurtful as possible, then dismiss any umbrage taken on the grounds that others shouldn't take criticism of their dearly held beliefs personally.
I don't really get all the generalisations you are making on this subject. Some beliefs don't deserve respect - like the belief that it's ok to discriminate against gays or fly into tall buildings. Those sorts beliefs should get pretty short shrift. Other less obviously harmful beliefs - like, say transubstantiation - need a more tolerant approach. But both types do need to be challenged if they are being pushed at us.
This isn't to say we shouldn't have discussions about politics, religion, sexuality, or any other subject that people take seriously. But we need to acknowledge that people identify strongly with these beliefs, and we don't need to pretend to be surprised when they react strongly against careless, unsympathetic criticism like being told their beliefs are delusions.
I doubt anyone is suprised when it happens - but maybe that's not your point. I'm all for tolerance and not hurting people's feelings, but debating strongly held beliefs leads to strong reactions more often than not. It's part of the process. You seem to be railing against an inevitability.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by MrHambre, posted 06-08-2015 12:32 PM MrHambre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by MrHambre, posted 06-08-2015 1:34 PM Tangle has replied

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