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Author Topic:   Jihadists must die, --- but our real enemies are the Qur’an and Bible.
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1383 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 106 of 375 (759062)
06-08-2015 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Greatest I am
06-08-2015 12:50 PM


Re: respect vs tolerance
But what if delusion is what they have?
Well, you don't really know what each believer thinks, the way they interpret the dogma of their religion, or what the beliefs mean to them. Yet you want to make a specific psychiatric diagnosis for billions of people on Earth, based on your stereotypes and prejudices. So what did you say about telling the truth to the delusional?
If a believer, would that link insult you?
I'm not a believer, but I found that link insulting. Maybe you have a much higher threshold for fact-free speculation about religion's origins in "schizotypalism". And you're welcome to it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Greatest I am, posted 06-08-2015 12:50 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Greatest I am, posted 06-09-2015 6:49 PM MrHambre has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 107 of 375 (759063)
06-08-2015 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Greatest I am
06-08-2015 12:50 PM


Re: respect vs tolerance
What if delusion is what YOU have? You are making some awfully dogmatic assertions about what other people think without a clue as to how they arrived at their convictions. What makes your Gnosticism any more respectable or less delusional? You don't seem to be aware that all you're doing is preferring your own opinion to others' opinions;.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Greatest I am, posted 06-08-2015 12:50 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Greatest I am, posted 06-09-2015 6:59 PM Faith has not replied

MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1383 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 108 of 375 (759066)
06-08-2015 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Tangle
06-08-2015 1:07 PM


Re: respect vs tolerance
Some beliefs don't deserve respect - like the belief that it's ok to discriminate against gays or fly into tall buildings. Those sorts beliefs should get pretty short shrift. Other less obviously harmful beliefs - like, say transubstantiation - need a more tolerant approach. But both types do need to be challenged if they are being pushed at us.
I agree. And that's why we're here in Plato's Digital Cave, to argue and challenge ideas and beliefs. But the way writers like Sam Harris have created the idea that vast cultural constructs can be reduced to sets of literal beliefs gives us the illusion that social progress in the real world can be accomplished by changing people's beliefs from the wrong ones to the right ones. The marginalization of the LGBTQ community involves a lot more than the widespread belief that it's okay to discriminate against them; what ends the marginalization is passing laws to make it illegal, not just convincing people to abandon their false beliefs. What causes and reinforces terrorism like the 9/11 attacks is a lot more complicated than a belief about the proper way to fly aircraft.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Tangle, posted 06-08-2015 1:07 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Tangle, posted 06-08-2015 1:48 PM MrHambre has seen this message but not replied
 Message 115 by Faith, posted 06-09-2015 6:05 AM MrHambre has replied
 Message 135 by Greatest I am, posted 06-09-2015 7:06 PM MrHambre has not replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 109 of 375 (759067)
06-08-2015 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by MrHambre
06-08-2015 1:34 PM


Re: respect vs tolerance
Mr Hambre writes:
But the way writers like Sam Harris have created the idea that vast cultural constructs can be reduced to sets of literal beliefs gives us the illusion that social progress in the real world can be accomplished by changing people's beliefs from the wrong ones to the right ones.
And I think that is quite correct and actually what happens. At the aggregate level - rather than the individual debate level - society's views of morality have changed for the better over time. That has only happened because our conciousness has been raised by those challenging the 'wrong' ideas and promoting the 'right' ideas. It may not change an individual's mind but it may influence the thought of a generation after.
The marginalization of the LGBTQ community involves a lot more than the widespread belief that it's okay to discriminate against them; what ends the marginalization is passing laws to make it illegal, not just convincing people to abandon their false beliefs.
Laws do not change without the consent of the people and that doesn't happen unless those harmed by the beliefs organise and promote their case. That very regularly requires not just upsetting people but also breaking laws and aggressively campaigning. Women's votes, gay rights, discrimination of all kinds are obvious examples.
People getting upset, is often a sign that something is changing for the better because something that was once hidden, is now out and in your face.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by MrHambre, posted 06-08-2015 1:34 PM MrHambre has seen this message but not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 110 of 375 (759068)
06-08-2015 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Greatest I am
06-08-2015 11:19 AM


Re: respect vs tolerance
Gia writes:
I speak to many Christians about that immoral belief they hold. Few, like you, say they are appalled by it. Good for you buddy.
The thing is, without the cross and vicarious redemption, Christianity has nothing to sell. To remain Christian they would have to become Jews and return to that vile demiurge Yahweh.
You would also have to take literal reading out of Christianity and doing so would be them admitting that their priests have been lying all these many years.
I don't think Christians are ready for the truth.
If you do not believe in the savior, do you believe you need saving at all?
If so then you are more like a Gnostic Christian and not a Christian.
Are you a Universalist or does hell exist for you?
But I already told you that I am a Christian.
Yes, priests and apologists and others have lied and still lie.
I still think Christianity has a valid product and concept even without the idea of Jesus paying for others sins.
And of course the Bible should not be taken literally although I think you will find that I do take it far more literally than Faith or so called "Biblical Christians".

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Greatest I am, posted 06-08-2015 11:19 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Greatest I am, posted 06-09-2015 7:14 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 111 of 375 (759069)
06-08-2015 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by MrHambre
06-08-2015 12:32 PM


Re: respect vs tolerance
This isn't to say we shouldn't have discussions about politics, religion, sexuality, or any other subject that people take seriously. But we need to acknowledge that people identify strongly with these beliefs, and we don't need to pretend to be surprised when they react strongly against careless, unsympathetic criticism like being told their beliefs are delusions.
But again, I did not suggest telling folk their beliefs are delusions although in many cases where there is evidence to support such a position I think that is the correct action to take.
For example I have no problem telling folk that Young Earth or that there was some Biblical Flood are simply delusions.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by MrHambre, posted 06-08-2015 12:32 PM MrHambre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by MrHambre, posted 06-08-2015 2:21 PM jar has replied

MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1383 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


(2)
Message 112 of 375 (759070)
06-08-2015 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by jar
06-08-2015 1:55 PM


Re: respect vs tolerance
I have no problem telling folk that Young Earth or that there was some Biblical Flood are simply delusions.
Sure, and that's because these are beliefs that ---if stated literally--- are very amenable to scientific analysis. The same can't be said for beliefs about meaning, purpose, community, and morality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by jar, posted 06-08-2015 1:55 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by jar, posted 06-08-2015 3:43 PM MrHambre has seen this message but not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 113 of 375 (759072)
06-08-2015 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by MrHambre
06-08-2015 2:21 PM


Re: respect vs tolerance
Agreed until there is an attempt to impose one set of beliefs about meaning, purpose, and morality outside their community. "I believe you should not do that" or "My Holy book says you should not do that" or "God says" are not sufficient reason to impose anything on anyone else.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by MrHambre, posted 06-08-2015 2:21 PM MrHambre has seen this message but not replied

saab93f
Member (Idle past 1385 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


Message 114 of 375 (759107)
06-09-2015 3:57 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
06-08-2015 9:40 AM


Re: respect vs tolerance
As not just a theist but a Christian I cannot see any reason that anyone should respect my beliefs. I can see reasons that my beliefs should be tolerated as long as the do not justifiably infringe on others.
Let me expand somewhat.
I believe that there is a God and afterlife and that my behavior while living will be judged after death.
Whether or not that is an accurate reflection of reality is pretty irrelevant; if I try to behave while alive in a way that would be judged as acceptable but there is no judgement or life after death I will still have lived an acceptable life.
I am appalled by the "Jesus paid for our sins" brand of Christianity as a cheap conjob and more than worthless, it is destructive. I have no respect for that snake oil product but do tolerate it since, Thank God, in the US, "The Bible told me so" is not accepted as defense for antisocial behavior.
Beliefs do not deserve respect but I think they do deserve tolerance unless they infringe on others.
I agree with thee. Then again - a slippery slope this is. If a believer can justify his/her condemning homosexuals with the Bible or because "that is what the Lord commands" AND that is seen as an acceptable reason by a majority then what? In the US (at least that is what it looks like to an outsider) saying God or telling that the Bible says so seems to be a "Get out of Jail -card" because it is intended to shut the mouths of the opposition - how can anyone rise against the "Good Book"...
Can I say that because the holy book of my faith of Lastthursdayism stipulates that Christians should be openly mocked and ridiculed and if theyre hurt it just shows how right the LTs are - and people would just politely nod and say that yes, religious tolerance is quite fine and dandy?
We are talking about popularity - Abrahamic religions are quite popular (fortunately the number of non-believers is also on the rise) and that is why they (broad brush I agree) act as bullies and simultaneously as fragile primadonnas.
I dont want to hurt anyone - I get no pleasure at all seeing another human being in agony (neither mental or physical). OTOH I find myself thinking quite often how I cannot comprehend the believers and how someone (not me obviously should just slap them and tell that theyre deluded bigtime - especially as I ride past the Mormon temple. Grown-ups believing stuff like that - if it wasnt somehow Christian, theyd be called insane but now they in their utter lunacy enjoy the similar shield as the less moronic (pun intended) religions. Odd, very odd.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 06-08-2015 9:40 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by jar, posted 06-09-2015 10:35 AM saab93f has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 115 of 375 (759111)
06-09-2015 6:05 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by MrHambre
06-08-2015 1:34 PM


Re: respect vs tolerance
The marginalization of the LGBTQ community involves a lot more than the widespread belief that it's okay to discriminate against them; what ends the marginalization is passing laws to make it illegal, not just convincing people to abandon their false beliefs.
Just wondering if you are aware that if gay marriage is made legal across the nation, which it most likely will be when SCOTUS rules on it, that it's Christians who will be marginalized? Required to honor gay marriage which God forbids. There is no "widespread belief that it's okay to discriminate" against them, there is simply OUR obligation to obey God and we will although we'll be driven out of business, fined, or even possibly imprisoned for preaching what the Bible says. Just wondering if that's okay with you the way it is with almost everybody else here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by MrHambre, posted 06-08-2015 1:34 PM MrHambre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by MrHambre, posted 06-09-2015 6:34 AM Faith has replied
 Message 137 by Greatest I am, posted 06-09-2015 7:26 PM Faith has replied

MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1383 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 116 of 375 (759112)
06-09-2015 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Faith
06-09-2015 6:05 AM


"But the second stone, up for grabs."
There is no "widespread belief that it's okay to discriminate" against them, there is simply OUR obligation to obey God
Since Jesus said zip about gay marriage or homosexuality in general, it's all interpretation. I guess the brand of Christianity you favor is marketed to communities who find Christ's commands to love one another and withhold judgment less compelling than Old Testament admonitions against sodomy. I also assume that the Episcopal Church has been receiving much different instructions from The Big G concerning marriage equality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Faith, posted 06-09-2015 6:05 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 117 of 375 (759113)
06-09-2015 6:43 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by MrHambre
06-09-2015 6:34 AM


Re: "But the second stone, up for grabs."
Funny how unbelievers think they know so much better what Jesus meant than us Bible believers. Anyway, thank you for your answer.
Oh by the way, No Christians I know have ever thrown a stone at a sinner, unless you count preaching salvation to them. But if gay marriage passes it will be Christians getting stoned, just as your post lobbed a stone at me.
May God forgive you.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by MrHambre, posted 06-09-2015 6:34 AM MrHambre has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by vimesey, posted 06-09-2015 7:17 AM Faith has replied
 Message 120 by jar, posted 06-09-2015 7:51 AM Faith has replied

vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(3)
Message 118 of 375 (759114)
06-09-2015 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Faith
06-09-2015 6:43 AM


Re: "But the second stone, up for grabs."
Funny how unbelievers think they know so much better what Jesus meant than us Bible believers.
Don't try to pull that. If you are relying on your book to justify treating some people as less than other people, then you get to be challenged on what the book says. You don't get a free pass to do what the hell you like, just because your particular interpretation (being the one espoused by your particular Christian denomination out of around 20,000 of them) of your book says it's fine.
The moment you treat one other human being in a shitty way, because of what you believe about your book, you are gonna get questioned, and legitimately so.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Faith, posted 06-09-2015 6:43 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Faith, posted 06-09-2015 7:44 AM vimesey has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 119 of 375 (759117)
06-09-2015 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by vimesey
06-09-2015 7:17 AM


Re: "But the second stone, up for grabs."
Funny how unbelievers think they know so much better what Jesus meant than us Bible believers.
Don't try to pull that.
What, you mean the truth? I know what the Bible means, unbelievers don't. That's the simple truth. There are lots of so-called "Christian" denominations these days that preach a false idea of the Bible as well.
Jesus FORGAVE sin, as we are all to do, HE DID NOT DENY IT IS SIN, as so many today want to do. He even paid for our sins by His own death that we'd otherwise be condemned for in an eternity of Hell. He died for us sinners and you all want to say Oh there is no sin, no need for Him to die, and worse, you try to put those words in HIS mouth. It is not loving the sinner to pretend he's not a sinner in need of salvation. I'm a sinner God saved. I don't throw stones at other sinners, I want them to be saved too.
If you are relying on your book to justify treating some people as less than other people, then you get to be challenged on what the book says.
But that's a lie. We do not treat anyone as less than anyone else. A sinner is a sinner in need of salvation. But what you are all doing is pretending sin is not sin and legally forcing us to accept that lie. When sin is legally redefined as an oppressed class this world has already gone to Hell. Hell rules, and Hell wants to shut up the Christians because we have the bad habit of getting sinners saved out of their clutches. Oh not the "nice" Christians, the ones you all like, who think it's mean to call sin sin and think Jesus' love pretends sin doesn't exist. Ugh what a sham. Jesus DIED to pay for sin. He doesn't take sin lightly. It cost the Son of God His life and God forsook Him on the cross for us. But you all conspire to keep sinners from being saved while you condemn the messengers of the salvation they need --that you all need.
You don't get a free pass to do what the hell you like, just because your particular interpretation (being the one espoused by your particular Christian denomination out of around 20,000 of them) of your book says it's fine.
Obvious the truth isn't getting any free passes these days. The Lie is winning. Sad days for planet earth. The devil has been plotting this for years, decades, centuries. He's got us where he wants us now and all the ignorant unbelievers on his side. Wow, what a coup. I pray you will come to see the truth and be saved too, though I'm sure it just makes you more indignant to hear that.
The moment you treat one other human being in a shitty way, because of what you believe about your book, you are gonna get questioned, and legitimately so.
No matter that that's a big fat lie about what we are doing. The big fat lie is winning and going to send millions to Hell as you all applaud. For now. The applause isn't going to last.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by vimesey, posted 06-09-2015 7:17 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by vimesey, posted 06-09-2015 8:47 AM Faith has replied
 Message 139 by Greatest I am, posted 06-09-2015 7:39 PM Faith has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 120 of 375 (759118)
06-09-2015 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Faith
06-09-2015 6:43 AM


Re: "But the second stone, up for grabs."
Faith writes:
Funny how unbelievers think they know so much better what Jesus meant than us Bible believers. Anyway, thank you for your answer.
First, so called "Bible believers" do not believe the Bible but rather they believe their fantasy about what the Bible should actually be saying instead of what is actually written in the stories. It seems that "Bible believers" are incapable of actually reading the Bible.
And the utter nonsense that some Christians might be thrown in jail for their beliefs or hat the preach is just more lying for fun and profit.
Further, it is not "Christians" who get fined for discrimination but rather law breakers.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Faith, posted 06-09-2015 6:43 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Faith, posted 06-09-2015 8:07 AM jar has replied

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