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Author Topic:   Jihadists must die, --- but our real enemies are the Qur’an and Bible.
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 264 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 136 of 375 (759206)
06-09-2015 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by jar
06-08-2015 1:50 PM


Re: respect vs tolerance
Jar
Christianity does have the odd useful tenets but nothing that has not been plagiarized from an older tradition.
Even a God dying for his people is not new.
But dogma aside, listen to what the Bishop says about what kind of change the church has to go through. I find him intelligent on this issue and you might as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUmKEH9jnu8
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by jar, posted 06-08-2015 1:50 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by jar, posted 06-09-2015 7:27 PM Greatest I am has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 264 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 137 of 375 (759209)
06-09-2015 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Faith
06-09-2015 6:05 AM


Re: respect vs tolerance
Faith
" there is simply OUR obligation to obey God and we will although we'll be driven out of business,"
I had a good laugh at this.
How many Christians have that obligation?
Remember before you say 100% that at least 60 % of Christians are divorced and God only knows how many Christians abort their babies against God's will daily.
Not to mention that the U.S. has the highest incarceration in almost the whole world.
Your " obligation to obey God ", does not seem to be the same obligation the vast majority of Christians share.
Could thinking your fellow Christians, against all the evidence, are actually walking their talk be a part of that delusion?
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Faith, posted 06-09-2015 6:05 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Faith, posted 06-09-2015 7:39 PM Greatest I am has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 138 of 375 (759210)
06-09-2015 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Greatest I am
06-09-2015 7:14 PM


Re: respect vs tolerance
Sorry, got no time for videos.
But that is still irrelevant and your premises have been shown to be falsified.
Since there are Muslims and Christians that do not oppress gays or women then the books themselves cannot be the problem. Since there are Christian churches that do not oppress gays or women then Christianity is not the problem.
Reality cannot be condensed to fit on a bumper-sticker or in a YouTube video.
The enemy is neither the Qur'an or the Bible but ratrher ignorance and that is not limited to the religious.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Greatest I am, posted 06-09-2015 7:14 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Greatest I am, posted 06-09-2015 7:49 PM jar has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 264 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 139 of 375 (759214)
06-09-2015 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Faith
06-09-2015 7:44 AM


Re: "But the second stone, up for grabs."
Faith
"I know what the Bible means, unbelievers don't."
Care to teach me a few things then?
Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
The above is a series I put together that seem to flow rather seamlessly.
What is Jesus telling us? I have a view but would like confirmation.
---------------
How about this one that confuses me.
John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
----------------
Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
These last two have me scratching my head.
I think scriptures are saying to ignore the written word.
That makes sense in light of the fact that a Rabbi can overrule God himself as to his written words in the Jewish holy books.
If you know of the old Jewish Divine Council then my statement will make sense.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Faith, posted 06-09-2015 7:44 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Phat, posted 06-10-2015 3:17 AM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 153 by Faith, posted 06-10-2015 1:39 PM Greatest I am has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 140 of 375 (759215)
06-09-2015 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Greatest I am
06-09-2015 7:26 PM


Re: respect vs tolerance
There are lots of "Christians" who don't obey God, but there are also genuine Bible believers who do and will. I think it's five business owners now who have been legally punished for refusing to serve a gay wedding. I expect to see a sharp rise in that kind of incident if the Supreme Court rules to make gay marriage the law of the nation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Greatest I am, posted 06-09-2015 7:26 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Greatest I am, posted 06-09-2015 7:54 PM Faith has not replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 264 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 141 of 375 (759216)
06-09-2015 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by jar
06-09-2015 7:27 PM


Re: respect vs tolerance
Jar
So let everything ride as is and ignore Einstein quote on expecting change.
For evil to grow, all we need do is what you recommend. Doing nothing.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by jar, posted 06-09-2015 7:27 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by jar, posted 06-09-2015 7:55 PM Greatest I am has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 264 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 142 of 375 (759217)
06-09-2015 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Faith
06-09-2015 7:39 PM


Re: respect vs tolerance
Faith
Your Jesus says that anyone who believes in him can do what he did and more.
What are believers waiting for to save the 10 million or so children under 10 years of age that will die of preventable cause in the next year?
It seems that either Christians are lying, or the bible quoting Jesus is lying, or Christians just do not have the moral conscience to act.
Which is it in your case?
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Faith, posted 06-09-2015 7:39 PM Faith has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 143 of 375 (759218)
06-09-2015 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Greatest I am
06-09-2015 7:49 PM


Re: respect vs tolerance
Yet more falsehoods and misrepresentation from you. No where have I suggested doing nothing; what I have suggested is stop stop making really stupid suggestions that have been proven to be wrong.
The enemy is not the Bible or the Qur'an but rather education and our failure to teach people how to think and simplistic thinking like "our real enemies are the Qur’an and Bible."

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Greatest I am, posted 06-09-2015 7:49 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Greatest I am, posted 06-09-2015 7:59 PM jar has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 264 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 144 of 375 (759219)
06-09-2015 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by jar
06-09-2015 7:55 PM


Re: respect vs tolerance
Jar
You keep saying that education is the key while ignoring the fact that the Qur'an is what Muslims use to teach and educate.
Whose the fool?
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by jar, posted 06-09-2015 7:55 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by jar, posted 06-09-2015 8:19 PM Greatest I am has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 145 of 375 (759220)
06-09-2015 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Greatest I am
06-09-2015 7:59 PM


Re: respect vs tolerance
The Qur'an is used by some Muslims to teach but there are also Muslim scientists and writers and doctors and lawyers and politicians and chefs and merchants and all of them learned from more than the Qur'an.
The issue is ignorance like saying "You keep saying that education is the key while ignoring the fact that the Qur'an is what Muslims use to teach and educate" when the evidence shows that while the Qur'an or Bible might be included in someones education (I have read both and studied both) that they are not the only source of education.
AbE: Also, a statement like "Jihadists must die" places the speaker squarely in the camp of really dangerous anti-social folk that need to be watched. The term "jihad" simply means the duty and struggle a Muslim must go through to maintain the religion of Islam. It does not mean to spread Islam or to attack others (a practice specifically prohibited in the Qur'an except in cases of self-defense) or to make war or any other aggressive practice. Like so many words it can have multiple meanings and how it is interpreted is a function of education.
Edited by jar, : see AbE:
Edited by jar, : left out "not" negation

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Greatest I am, posted 06-09-2015 7:59 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Greatest I am, posted 06-10-2015 12:59 PM jar has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 146 of 375 (759236)
06-10-2015 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Greatest I am
06-09-2015 7:39 PM


Re: "But the second stone, up for grabs."
How about this one that confuses me.
John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
It means that Jesus is not representing himself---as a human. Jesus is representing God.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Greatest I am, posted 06-09-2015 7:39 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Greatest I am, posted 06-10-2015 1:03 PM Phat has not replied

saab93f
Member (Idle past 1385 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


Message 147 of 375 (759250)
06-10-2015 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by jar
06-09-2015 10:35 AM


Re: respect vs tolerance
quote:
In the US (although also applicable to other places but as an American I will limit my comments to the US) we did allow "God said" as an affirmative defense for a long time. But we evolve and that works less and each year. Of course there will also be set backs and evolution is not single direction or uniform.
Condemning folk, damning folk, considering folk as lower than slime, as sinners is, thank God, protected here in the US. We have the right to label folk, to disapprove of folk, to not associate with folk and even to hate, despise and denigrate folk in private lives, private organization and in our chosen religion. We have the right to publicly castigate, rebuke, chastise, scold, admonish, reprove or chide anyone for their beliefs, characteristics, sex, behavior, dress, food. smell, national origin, religion, political or cultural association.
What we do not have is the right to act beyond speech on those things outside some private association, private organization or religion.
Is it perfect?
Nope.
Is is always effective?
Nope.
But we do seem to be moving slowly towards a better society.
Our biggest issue is still our failure to teach kids how to think and this limits everything above. If we teach that "God says so" is an affirmative defense then we get the society we create.
If you read the posts here from the "Bible believers" I'm sure you have noticed that they do not actually believe what the Bible says but rather what they have been told the Bible says. This creates the absurdities we see in this and other threads as well as in the news.
Education though is difficult, painful and almost often a matter of teaching people what they don't want to know.
Once again I agree - the freedom of speech AND thought are of paramount importance. If it only ended at speech...
Why is it so that "sincerely held belief" is still a valid excuse in the US (at least in some parts)? You are a secular democracy yet you cater to the whims of the (evangelical) Christians?
Education is the key as you said - then again it has been a subject of many setbacks. The science-denialists are remarkably strong and devious and when theyre confronted, the response in just about evil IMO.
There is a great deal of very good in the US - if only you got rid of the stronghold of fundamentalists...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by jar, posted 06-09-2015 10:35 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by jar, posted 06-10-2015 9:09 AM saab93f has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 148 of 375 (759254)
06-10-2015 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by saab93f
06-10-2015 8:38 AM


Re: respect vs tolerance
Why is it so that "sincerely held belief" is still a valid excuse in the US (at least in some parts)? You are a secular democracy yet you cater to the whims of the (evangelical) Christians?
Education is the key as you said - then again it has been a subject of many setbacks. The science-denialists are remarkably strong and devious and when theyre confronted, the response in just about evil IMO.
There is a great deal of very good in the US - if only you got rid of the stronghold of fundamentalists...
Several points.
In our Constitution Freedom of Religion is protected as a Right. That necessarily includes protecting the Christian Cult of Ignorance.
Freedom of Association is also a Constitutionally protected Right. That necessarily includes the Right for the members of the Cult of Ignorance to gather and form associations and organizations.
Like association, Freedom of Speech is a Constitutionally protected Right. The effects of those will hopefully become apparent after the next issue.
A final and important but seldom discussed part of our Constitution is the 10th. Amendment.
quote:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
Education is not mentioned in the Constitution and so the power to create schools and determine what will be taught in those schools devolves to the State and people.
These four things mean that in the US the Cult of Ignorance folk can create avoidance schools, avoidance peer review groups, avoidance accrediting boards, avoidance colleges, avoidance radio and TV networks, avoidance web browsers where their beliefs cannot be challenged or questioned.
Their Ignorance is Constitutionally protected.
When behavior moves from those Constitutionally Protected areas, (a business refuses to let Blacks sit at the counter or a business refuses to bake a wedding cake for a same-sex marriage) then there can be and has been legal process to stop such behavior.
But the root cause, education, is unfortunately not addressable in the US. We have few ways to control what is taught except within the Public School systems. There, time and time again the Cult of Ignorance has lost. Creationism, as one example, always loses when the Cult of Ignorance tries to force it into the Public Schools.
There is no way though in the US to keep such nonsense out of the Avoidance Schools.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by saab93f, posted 06-10-2015 8:38 AM saab93f has not replied

MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1383 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 149 of 375 (759256)
06-10-2015 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Greatest I am
06-09-2015 6:49 PM


Re: respect vs tolerance
Greatest I am writes:
I did not put that information into the university cariculum [sic] and if higher science insults fools then so be it.
"higher science"
Get a grip. This was a YouTube video of some kook professor ranting about "schizotypalism" being the foundation for religion. If you like the idea, that's just swell. But pretending that this is some sort of consensus belief among anthropologists or historians is pretty delusional in and of itself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Greatest I am, posted 06-09-2015 6:49 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Greatest I am, posted 06-10-2015 1:18 PM MrHambre has not replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 264 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 150 of 375 (759279)
06-10-2015 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by jar
06-09-2015 8:19 PM


Re: respect vs tolerance
Jar
"It does not mean to spread Islam or to attack others (a practice specifically prohibited in the Qur'an"
Your meaning and the meaning jihadists use is obviously quite different.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by jar, posted 06-09-2015 8:19 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by jar, posted 06-10-2015 3:22 PM Greatest I am has replied

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