Open-minded Skepticism

Message 61 of 85 (759466) 06-11-2015 4:24 PM

Reply to: Message 60 by mikechell 06-11-2015 4:11 PM

But did anyone here ever say that Facts mean nothing, mike? If not, why even bring it up?

Message 62 of 85 (759468) 06-11-2015 6:49 PM

Reply to: Message 61 by MrHambre 06-11-2015 4:24 PM

But since you've all "piled on" to push your point that a fact is indeed NOT concrete, I've put down the drum. It's you who still wants to argue a pointless "fact".

Message 63 of 85 (759469) 06-11-2015 7:29 PM

Reply to: Message 62 by mikechell 06-11-2015 6:49 PM

But they are facts.

Message 66 of 85 (759476) 06-11-2015 9:21 PM

Reply to: Message 65 by mikechell 06-11-2015 8:10 PM

I've been fortunate enough to have lived on the East coast of the US as well as the West coast of the US and it is a fact that I have seen the sun rise in the East and set in the West.

Message 68 of 85 (759496) 06-12-2015 5:27 AM

Reply to: Message 67 by mikechell 06-11-2015 10:58 PM

The point is that they're both "facts." We observe the Sun rising out of the eastern horizon and drop into the western horizon with such regularity that you could form testable predictions out of the phenomenon. As for the Earth's rotation, that's a scientific theory that humans created to explain observations like solar "motion." You consider the theory a fact even though it contradicts our observations.

Message 69 of 85 (759498) 06-12-2015 6:54 AM

does too ... does not ... does too blah blah blah
The Earth rotates. There are multitudes of data that will prove that. It's fact.
You seeing the sun rise and set does NOT change the fact. There is only your observation, and no other proof. Observation does NOT change fact. The FACT that the Earth rotates DOES change the observation ... if you're smart enough to use it.

Edited by mikechell, : No reason given.

Message 70 of 85 (759499) 06-12-2015 8:05 AM

Reply to: Message 69 by mikechell 06-12-2015 6:54 AM

If a fact is irrefutable then it has no place in science.

What's more, it would mean that there are, essentially, no such things as 'facts', since history has shown us that pretty much everything we've known at any particular time has eventually been shown to be wrong in some way and that everything we know today will also likely be shown wrong at some time in the future.

So it is you who think facts mean nothing. Everyone else here, by understanding facts in their context and relationship to us and what we already know, appreciates the way facts weave together with our lives, our experiences, and our prejudices to create deeper understandings of the world around us.

Your understanding of 'fact' is entirely useless.

Message 71 of 85 (759510) 06-12-2015 10:36 AM

Reply to: Message 67 by mikechell 06-11-2015 10:58 PM

I think you may be conflating a fact with the natural laws of the universe/physics which so far as we know are immutable. (*with caveats in quantum physics)

Facts are important in that they set the bar on what we all can agree is true. But just as the above example; those things are not set in stone regardless of how hard you cling to them.
That is all folks are saying.

If you are in a room and I show you a green ball and asked you what color is the ball? You would say it is green. If I get a hundred people to tell me the color they would say it is green. So the ball is green, a matter of fact. But is it? No, the ball is actually yellow and I have been shining a blue light from above on the ball. So where does that fact lie?

Message 72 of 85 (759519) 06-12-2015 1:45 PM

Reply to: Message 71 by 1.61803 06-12-2015 10:36 AM

So I pointed it out to my girlfriend, "Look, these things say that they're green."

"That's because they are," she said.

Message 73 of 85 (759570) 06-13-2015 9:29 AM

Reply to: Message 71 by 1.61803 06-12-2015 10:36 AM

You've pointed out my point precisely, thank you. The FACT is that the ball is yellow . The second FACT is that there is a blue light shining on it. The OBSERVATION that said it was green is not and never was a fact.
Observation alone does not change a fact. Once the true facts are known, the observation that a blue light shining on a yellow ball will make it look green is also a repeatable, observable bit of data that supports the fact. Change the facts, and the observation will change. Changing the observation will not change the facts.

Message 74 of 85 (759575) 06-13-2015 10:07 AM

Reply to: Message 73 by mikechell 06-13-2015 9:29 AM

How can we know that we know a 'true fact' and how can we know that the fact is 'true'?

How exactly do you think we get facts?

Because we either gather them through observation of the world around us or make them up in our heads.

Which one is it?

Message 75 of 85 (759580) 06-13-2015 10:40 AM

Seeing the ball is green, one time, and saying that is a "fact" is making things up in your head.
Take the ball to another room, it's yellow. Take it back, it's green. Huh, observation just proved that the ball is NOT green. Take the ball and the light to another room, the ball is now green. Increasing our knowledge base. If we keep gathering knowledge, we will eventually find that the ball IS yellow (fact) and the blue light makes it look green (fact). From that point, those two facts have been set. No other observations will change that, so you cannot,