Open-minded Skepticism

I already said I don't think it's true that beliefs can change facts, so I don't know why you're beating that drum.

But did anyone here ever say that Facts mean nothing, mike? If not, why even bring it up?

I am not beating any drum. I was ... when I was stating what I know to be the definition of a fact.
From the dictionary ...

noun: 1. something that actually exists; reality; truth 2. something known to exist or to have happened 3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true

But since you've all "piled on" to push your point that a fact is indeed NOT concrete, I've put down the drum. It's you who still wants to argue a pointless "fact".

mikechell writes: But since you've all "piled on" to push your point that a fact is indeed NOT concrete, I've put down the drum. It's you who still wants to argue a pointless "fact".

I don't consider it a pointless fact that our knowledge depends on context. It's not a pointless fact that truth is culturally constructed.

But they are facts.

The sun rises and sets; true fact but false.

I don't consider it a pointless fact that our knowledge depends on context. It's not a pointless fact that truth is culturally constructed.

Again ... I will point out that a fact is a hard, cold truth that shapes the way we think. The way we think does not change the fact. You cannot call a thought, or an idea, or a half truth ... a fact. Once it is a set, repeatable truth or result, only then can it be considered a fact.

The sun rises and sets; true fact but false.

It is NOT a true fact. The FACT is that the Earth rotates. Just because someone wants to BELIEVE the sun rises and sets does NOT make it a fact.

It is NOT a true fact. The FACT is that the Earth rotates. Just because someone wants to BELIEVE the sun rises and sets does NOT make it a fact.

I've been fortunate enough to have lived on the East coast of the US as well as the West coast of the US and it is a fact that I have seen the sun rise in the East and set in the West.

... fact that I have seen the sun rise in the East and set in the West.

Um ... no, it is a perception that you've seen these things. The FACT is that you were stationary on a rotating planet as it moved YOU into position to see the Sun as it became visible to you.
But you know that, and you're just "did too, did not" bickering.. Your observation of the Sun's movement does not change the fact of the Earth's motion.

mikechell writes: Your observation of the Sun's movement does not change the fact of the Earth's motion.

The point is that they're both "facts." We observe the Sun rising out of the eastern horizon and drop into the western horizon with such regularity that you could form testable predictions out of the phenomenon. As for the Earth's rotation, that's a scientific theory that humans created to explain observations like solar "motion." You consider the theory a fact even though it contradicts our observations.

According to YOU, facts mean nothing.

As for the Earth's rotation, that's a scientific theory that humans created to explain observations like solar "motion." You consider the theory a fact even though it contradicts our observations.

We can bicker all we want. Obviously, I can't change your mind.
I say, a fact is irrefutable ... based on real data.
You say, nu huh ... it could mean anything based on observation.

does too ... does not ... does too blah blah blah
The Earth rotates. There are multitudes of data that will prove that. It's fact.
You seeing the sun rise and set does NOT change the fact. There is only your observation, and no other proof. Observation does NOT change fact. The FACT that the Earth rotates DOES change the observation ... if you're smart enough to use it.

Edited by mikechell, : No reason given.

I say, a fact is irrefutable

If a fact is irrefutable then it has no place in science.

What's more, it would mean that there are, essentially, no such things as 'facts', since history has shown us that pretty much everything we've known at any particular time has eventually been shown to be wrong in some way and that everything we know today will also likely be shown wrong at some time in the future.

So it is you who think facts mean nothing. Everyone else here, by understanding facts in their context and relationship to us and what we already know, appreciates the way facts weave together with our lives, our experiences, and our prejudices to create deeper understandings of the world around us.

Observation does NOT change fact.

Your understanding of 'fact' is entirely useless.

Hi Mike,
Facts can change, example: It is a fact that the white rhino exist in Africa.
In the near future it may also be a fact that it has become extinct.
Right? Oh so right now it is a fact that it is extant. But you see how easily facts can change depending on conditions and perceptions and a whole host of things.

I think you may be conflating a fact with the natural laws of the universe/physics which so far as we know are immutable. (*with caveats in quantum physics)

Facts are important in that they set the bar on what we all can agree is true. But just as the above example; those things are not set in stone regardless of how hard you cling to them.
That is all folks are saying.

If you are in a room and I show you a green ball and asked you what color is the ball? You would say it is green. If I get a hundred people to tell me the color they would say it is green. So the ball is green, a matter of fact. But is it? No, the ball is actually yellow and I have been shining a blue light from above on the ball. So where does that fact lie?

I bought a pack of small yellow notebooks once. Used them for writing everything. Then one day I noticed that the package called them "green". What the hell?

So I pointed it out to my girlfriend, "Look, these things say that they're green."

"That's because they are," she said.

It is a fact that the white rhino exist in Africa.

[qs]In the near future it may also be a fact that it has become extinct.[qs]
The second statement does not change the fact of the first statement. Just because a fact is no longer relevant does not change the fact. I agree, there are suppositions that are called "fact" even though they aren't.

If I get a hundred people to tell me the color they would say it is green.

Is the observation that did NOT change the fact that:

the ball is actually yellow and I have been shining a blue light from above on the ball.

You've pointed out my point precisely, thank you. The FACT is that the ball is yellow . The second FACT is that there is a blue light shining on it. The OBSERVATION that said it was green is not and never was a fact.
Observation alone does not change a fact. Once the true facts are known, the observation that a blue light shining on a yellow ball will make it look green is also a repeatable, observable bit of data that supports the fact. Change the facts, and the observation will change. Changing the observation will not change the facts.

Once the true facts are known

How can we know that we know a 'true fact' and how can we know that the fact is 'true'?

Changing the observation will not change the facts.

How exactly do you think we get facts?

Because we either gather them through observation of the world around us or make them up in our heads.

Which one is it?

I haven't had this kind of conversation since I was 8 and arguing with my 6 year old sister.

How exactly do you think we get facts? Because we either gather them through observation of the world around us or make them up in our heads.

Seeing the ball is green, one time, and saying that is a "fact" is making things up in your head.
Take the ball to another room, it's yellow. Take it back, it's green. Huh, observation just proved that the ball is NOT green. Take the ball and the light to another room, the ball is now green. Increasing our knowledge base. If we keep gathering knowledge, we will eventually find that the ball IS yellow (fact) and the blue light makes it look green (fact). From that point, those two facts have been set. No other observations will change that, so you cannot,

make them up in our heads

that the ball is red ... and suddenly change the fact that the ball is yellow!!!
Observations REVEAL the facts ... they don't CREATE them.