Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 85 (8984 total)
46 online now:
AZPaul3, PaulK, Tangle (3 members, 43 visitors)
Newest Member: Jerry Johnson
Post Volume: Total: 877,687 Year: 9,435/23,288 Month: 450/1,544 Week: 164/561 Day: 4/63 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Open-minded Skepticism
mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 85 (759481)
06-11-2015 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by jar
06-11-2015 9:21 PM


Re: Okay ... I'll give up.
... fact that I have seen the sun rise in the East and set in the West.

Um ... no, it is a perception that you've seen these things. The FACT is that you were stationary on a rotating planet as it moved YOU into position to see the Sun as it became visible to you.
But you know that, and you're just "did too, did not" bickering.. Your observation of the Sun's movement does not change the fact of the Earth's motion.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by jar, posted 06-11-2015 9:21 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by MrHambre, posted 06-12-2015 5:27 AM mikechell has not yet responded
 Message 71 by 1.61803, posted 06-12-2015 10:36 AM mikechell has responded

  
mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 85 (759498)
06-12-2015 6:54 AM


I'll try this again ...
According to YOU, facts mean nothing.
As for the Earth's rotation, that's a scientific theory that humans created to explain observations like solar "motion." You consider the theory a fact even though it contradicts our observations.

We can bicker all we want. Obviously, I can't change your mind.
I say, a fact is irrefutable ... based on real data.
You say, nu huh ... it could mean anything based on observation.

does too ... does not ... does too blah blah blah
The Earth rotates. There are multitudes of data that will prove that. It's fact.
You seeing the sun rise and set does NOT change the fact. There is only your observation, and no other proof. Observation does NOT change fact. The FACT that the Earth rotates DOES change the observation ... if you're smart enough to use it.

Edited by mikechell, : No reason given.


evidence over faith ... observation over theory

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Jon, posted 06-12-2015 8:05 AM mikechell has not yet responded

  
mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 85 (759570)
06-13-2015 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by 1.61803
06-12-2015 10:36 AM


Re: Okay ... I'll give up.
It is a fact that the white rhino exist in Africa.

[qs]In the near future it may also be a fact that it has become extinct.[qs]
The second statement does not change the fact of the first statement. Just because a fact is no longer relevant does not change the fact. I agree, there are suppositions that are called "fact" even though they aren't.
If I get a hundred people to tell me the color they would say it is green.

Is the observation that did NOT change the fact that:
the ball is actually yellow and I have been shining a blue light from above on the ball.

You've pointed out my point precisely, thank you. The FACT is that the ball is yellow . The second FACT is that there is a blue light shining on it. The OBSERVATION that said it was green is not and never was a fact.
Observation alone does not change a fact. Once the true facts are known, the observation that a blue light shining on a yellow ball will make it look green is also a repeatable, observable bit of data that supports the fact. Change the facts, and the observation will change. Changing the observation will not change the facts.


evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by 1.61803, posted 06-12-2015 10:36 AM 1.61803 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Jon, posted 06-13-2015 10:07 AM mikechell has not yet responded

  
mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 85 (759580)
06-13-2015 10:40 AM


bicker, bicker, bicker ...
I haven't had this kind of conversation since I was 8 and arguing with my 6 year old sister.
How exactly do you think we get facts?

Because we either gather them through observation of the world around us or make them up in our heads.

Seeing the ball is green, one time, and saying that is a "fact" is making things up in your head.
Take the ball to another room, it's yellow. Take it back, it's green. Huh, observation just proved that the ball is NOT green. Take the ball and the light to another room, the ball is now green. Increasing our knowledge base. If we keep gathering knowledge, we will eventually find that the ball IS yellow (fact) and the blue light makes it look green (fact). From that point, those two facts have been set. No other observations will change that, so you cannot,

make them up in our heads
that the ball is red ... and suddenly change the fact that the ball is yellow!!!
Observations REVEAL the facts ... they don't CREATE them.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Jon, posted 06-13-2015 11:29 AM mikechell has responded

  
mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 85 (759587)
06-13-2015 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Jon
06-13-2015 11:29 AM


Re: bicker, bicker, bicker ...
Ummm Yeah, it does. Green is in the electro-magnetic spectrum.
Your comment is the "If a tree falls and there's no one to hear it, does it make a sound?"
Yes ... the vibrations are still present.
The color green is still there ... even if no one is around to observe it.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Jon, posted 06-13-2015 11:29 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Jon, posted 06-13-2015 11:50 AM mikechell has not yet responded
 Message 79 by ringo, posted 06-13-2015 12:31 PM mikechell has not yet responded
 Message 80 by RAZD, posted 06-13-2015 1:27 PM mikechell has not yet responded

  
mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 85 (759614)
06-13-2015 2:17 PM


Once again ... I'll give up.
Actually, I won't try it, I'll do it.
You all can continue to bicker ... but just like with my sister all those decades ago, the only way out of the argument is to walk away.
You all can question the validity of a true fact.
This isn't "open-minded skepticism" ... this is just nay saying what a fact is, and ... I just don't care anymore.

Done with this thread.


evidence over faith ... observation over theory

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Theodoric, posted 06-13-2015 5:02 PM mikechell has not yet responded
 Message 84 by ringo, posted 06-14-2015 2:32 PM mikechell has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2020