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Author Topic:   Jihadists must die, --- but our real enemies are the Qur’an and Bible.
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 196 of 375 (759555)
06-13-2015 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by GDR
06-12-2015 9:48 PM


GDR writes:
Well I suppose that because a lot of people have historically believed that physical death isn't the end of our consciousness then it must be wrong and you know better.
Correct, I, or rather, we do know better. We know an awful lot of things better now than two thousand years ago when myth and superstition was a day to day virtual reality.
Yes and no.
But what follows is yes and yes. You both read the same book, you both take totally different meanings from it. In truth it's a purely personal interpretation you both apply, each of you picking the route through it that most appeals to your preconceptions, hopes and desires. It's pure wishful thinking for both of you.
The best I can say for it is that your interpretation is at least on the side of least harm - Faith would destroy society if she could.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by GDR, posted 06-12-2015 9:48 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by GDR, posted 06-13-2015 3:55 PM Tangle has replied

mikechell
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 197 of 375 (759573)
06-13-2015 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by GDR
06-12-2015 9:48 PM


If I had to believe in the god that at times is in favour of genocide and public stonings as He is sometimes erroneously depicted in the OT then I would not be a follower of a god like that.
??? So ... the old testament is bologna ... and the new testament is the truth ???
Isn't that picking and choosing what you want to believe? If one part of the whole bible is bull----, isn't the rest of it?
But this is all off track ... sorry, I just couldn't read that without befuddlement.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by GDR, posted 06-12-2015 9:48 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Jon, posted 06-13-2015 9:59 AM mikechell has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 198 of 375 (759574)
06-13-2015 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by mikechell
06-13-2015 9:53 AM


If one part of the whole bible is bull----, isn't the rest of it?
Huh?
Of course not.
Everything gets judged on its own merits.
Isn't that picking and choosing what you want to believe?
Is there a problem with that?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by mikechell, posted 06-13-2015 9:53 AM mikechell has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by mikechell, posted 06-13-2015 10:59 AM Jon has replied

mikechell
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 199 of 375 (759582)
06-13-2015 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Jon
06-13-2015 9:59 AM


But, if you believe the bible is the "word of god" then you can't pick and choose, can you? I already am confused how people can take the existence of an omnipotent being on faith ... now you say his word might not be the truth.
So omnipotence isn't so ... omnipotent? And you still believe?
How???

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Jon, posted 06-13-2015 9:59 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Jon, posted 06-13-2015 11:23 AM mikechell has replied
 Message 203 by jar, posted 06-13-2015 11:59 AM mikechell has not replied
 Message 206 by GDR, posted 06-13-2015 4:05 PM mikechell has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 200 of 375 (759584)
06-13-2015 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by mikechell
06-13-2015 10:59 AM


But, if you believe the bible is the "word of god" then you can't pick and choose, can you?
GDR doesn't believe the bible is the "word of god":
quote:
GDR in Message 195:
I essentially look at the Bible as a book written by mostly well meaning but still flawed human beings.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by mikechell, posted 06-13-2015 10:59 AM mikechell has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by mikechell, posted 06-13-2015 11:43 AM Jon has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 201 of 375 (759589)
06-13-2015 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by Greatest I am
06-12-2015 7:22 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
Greatest I am writes:
To just not do anything about jihadist creation by Islam after this last round of war and killing would just insure that we have to kill more of them later.
Killing them doesn't work. Every martyr inspires two more jihadists. Diplomatically asking them to agree with you doesn't work. You can't even get anybody on this forum to agree with you.
When the choice is between doing nothing and doing something that doesn't work, let's do nothing. It's cheaper.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Greatest I am, posted 06-12-2015 7:22 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Greatest I am, posted 06-15-2015 10:13 AM ringo has replied

mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 202 of 375 (759590)
06-13-2015 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Jon
06-13-2015 11:23 AM


But, if you believe the bible is the "word of god" then you can't pick and choose, can you?
GDR doesn't believe the bible is the "word of god":
You're right, Jon ... so none of it needs be true, by his reckoning.
Those are the "believers" that will still go to the wrong "place", correct?

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Jon, posted 06-13-2015 11:23 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Jon, posted 06-13-2015 12:09 PM mikechell has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 203 of 375 (759597)
06-13-2015 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by mikechell
06-13-2015 10:59 AM


But, if you believe the bible is the "word of god" then you can't pick and choose, can you? I already am confused how people can take the existence of an omnipotent being on faith ... now you say his word might not be the truth.
So omnipotence isn't so ... omnipotent? And you still believe?
All of the evidence (you do believe evidence don't you? ) says that the Bible is not the word of God but a creation of men, many men; an anthology of anthologies.
In addition, if you read the Bible stories they say the God character is not Omnipotent but that really has nothing to do with the Bible or faith anyway. Have you actually read the Bible?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by mikechell, posted 06-13-2015 10:59 AM mikechell has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Greatest I am, posted 06-15-2015 10:18 AM jar has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 204 of 375 (759599)
06-13-2015 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by mikechell
06-13-2015 11:43 AM


Those are the "believers" that will still go to the wrong "place", correct?
Huh?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by mikechell, posted 06-13-2015 11:43 AM mikechell has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 205 of 375 (759619)
06-13-2015 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Tangle
06-13-2015 3:02 AM


Tangle writes:
Correct, I, or rather, we do know better. We know an awful lot of things better now than two thousand years ago when myth and superstition was a day to day virtual reality.
We know an awful lot of stuff about the natural world that we experience. That doesn't mean that there isn't information that is undetectable by the scientific method, or at least isn't yet.
On the front page of Scientific American a while back the headline asked the question - "Hidden Worlds of Dark Matter- Is Another Universe Silently Interwoven With Our Own?". Just because something isn't perceptible by our 5 senses doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Tangle writes:
But what follows is yes and yes. You both read the same book, you both take totally different meanings from it. In truth it's a purely personal interpretation you both apply, each of you picking the route through it that most appeals to your preconceptions, hopes and desires. It's pure wishful thinking for both of you.
What I believe is pretty simple. As I theist I believe that God is good in the way that I think that we all at some level understand goodness. That would make God just, loving, merciful, kind etc. As a Christian I believe that God vindicated and affirmed the life and teaching of Jesus by resurrecting Him. (If Jesus wasn't resurrected then there is no reason to pay any more attention to him than there is anybody else and likely less as that would mean He was delusional.) When I read the Bible which is made up of 66 books, with no doubt hundreds of authors involved, I understand it through those two concepts - the goodness of God and the life and teachings of Jesus.
Jesus was as I said a 1st century Jew speaking almost exclusively to 1st century Jews. Very nearly all that we have of what Jesus said refers back to the Hebrew Scriptures so if we really want to understand Jesus we need the OT. In many cases Jesus actually corrects the OT by what he says so we can even see that Jesus didn't believe in an inerrant scripture.
Jesus said that we are to love our enemies. How do you square that with God commanding genocide and public stonings. You can't. It isn't really a matter of picking and choosing but of the method that is used.
Just as man has evolved physically the Bible tells the story of how our knowledge of the nature of God has evolved and for that matter continues to evolve. For example when we look at the nature of God as understood by the writers of the Torah we see God very differently in the later prophets such as Isaiah, and then we see the true nature of God perfectly embodied in Jesus.
You can call it wishful thinking if you like, but I don't think I'm any different than either you or Faith for that matter in that like everyone else we are looking for what we believe to be truthful, and on that we can build our individual world view which establishes how we live out our lives.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Tangle, posted 06-13-2015 3:02 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Tangle, posted 06-13-2015 6:09 PM GDR has replied
 Message 228 by Greatest I am, posted 06-15-2015 10:20 AM GDR has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(2)
Message 206 of 375 (759620)
06-13-2015 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by mikechell
06-13-2015 10:59 AM


mikechell writes:
But, if you believe the bible is the "word of god" then you can't pick and choose, can you? I already am confused how people can take the existence of an omnipotent being on faith ... now you say his word might not be the truth.
So omnipotence isn't so ... omnipotent? And you still believe?
How???
If you notice, Faith cheered your post. You both take the fundamentalist view that the Bible has one author namely God. What that essentially does is make a false idol of the Bible which the Bible itself even warns about. The religion is Christianity, not Biblianity.
I actually am happy to call the Bible the "word of God", as I believe that through the Bible we can learn the true nature of God. However in the Bible we can also see the true nature of mankind when for example we see people justifying genocide and public stonings by claiming that God told them to do it. (I go into a little more detail in my posting to Tangle above.)
I would call the Bible the "word of God' with Jesus being the "Word of God".

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by mikechell, posted 06-13-2015 10:59 AM mikechell has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by mikechell, posted 06-14-2015 12:23 AM GDR has replied
 Message 210 by Faith, posted 06-14-2015 2:40 AM GDR has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 207 of 375 (759630)
06-13-2015 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by GDR
06-13-2015 3:55 PM


GDR writes:
You can call it wishful thinking if you like, but I don't think I'm any different than either you or Faith for that matter in that like everyone else we are looking for what we believe to be truthful, and on that we can build our individual world view which establishes how we live out our lives.
I'm interested in the things we can actually know, not what we can fantasise about. I'm not searching for truth - I'm just getting along with what we know. I'm baffled by those that think they can know some further truth just by wanting something obviously mythological to be true.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by GDR, posted 06-13-2015 3:55 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by jar, posted 06-13-2015 6:15 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 212 by GDR, posted 06-14-2015 5:39 PM Tangle has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 208 of 375 (759631)
06-13-2015 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Tangle
06-13-2015 6:09 PM


believe vs know
I'm baffled by those that think they can know some further truth just by wanting something obviously mythological to be true.
Do you differentiate between believe and know?
How do you determine something is obviously mythological?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Tangle, posted 06-13-2015 6:09 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2015 4:29 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

mikechell
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 209 of 375 (759649)
06-14-2015 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by GDR
06-13-2015 4:05 PM


If you notice, Faith cheered your post. You both take the fundamentalist view that the Bible has one author namely God.
Well, it's my understanding that all the parts that "are tenets for behavior" something, are scripted by men under the guidance of god. But, I don't think any of it is god's word because I don't believe there is a god. I also believe that ALL organized religion is idolatry. And it is this very idolatry that corrupt "leaders" take advantage of to convince "followers" to commit acts of violence and savagery against others.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by GDR, posted 06-13-2015 4:05 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by GDR, posted 06-14-2015 5:52 PM mikechell has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 210 of 375 (759651)
06-14-2015 2:40 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by GDR
06-13-2015 4:05 PM


Mike didn't say anything that suggests that he himself believes the Bible is the word of God. I cheered him for simply arguing that position.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by GDR, posted 06-13-2015 4:05 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by GDR, posted 06-14-2015 5:56 PM Faith has not replied

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