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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 3511 of 5179 (759893)
06-15-2015 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 3508 by Percy
06-15-2015 6:25 PM


Re: Another one bites the dust.
You weren't arguing that the risk of starving to death from missing one meal is less than being killed while driving to dinner, something that no one would dispute (ignoring that some people are diabetic or have other health issues).
That's exactly what I was, and still am, arguing.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3508 by Percy, posted 06-15-2015 6:25 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 3512 of 5179 (759895)
06-15-2015 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 3507 by Dr Adequate
06-15-2015 6:18 PM


Re: Another one bites the dust.
In the real world, people's actions are motivated by their assessment of the likelihood of the consequences of their actions.
What a load of fantastical bullshit.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3507 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-15-2015 6:18 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

mikechell
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 3513 of 5179 (759902)
06-15-2015 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 3507 by Dr Adequate
06-15-2015 6:18 PM


Re: Another one bites the dust.
In the real world, people's actions are motivated by their assessment of the likelihood of the consequences of their actions.
Really??? LOL Are you seriously pushing that point???
Drinking and driving.
Texting and driving.
Smoking.
Eating foods known to cause bad health.
Running across a street anywhere but the cross walk.
Spending money you don't have, getting deeper and deeper in debt.
Quitting a job because of anger without having another job to go to.
Getting married without really knowing who you're marrying. (resulting in high divorce rates)
Sleeping with partners without protection.
Having children knowing you can't afford to bring them up.
I could go on ... but the world over is rife with examples of people living out their lives without EVER considering the consequences of their actions.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3507 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-15-2015 6:18 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3514 by Theodoric, posted 06-15-2015 11:39 PM mikechell has not replied
 Message 3515 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-16-2015 12:08 AM mikechell has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 3514 of 5179 (759905)
06-15-2015 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 3513 by mikechell
06-15-2015 9:48 PM


Re: Another one bites the dust.
Why did you post something that supports the opposite of your argument?
What you posted shows the strength of Dr. Adequates argument.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3513 by mikechell, posted 06-15-2015 9:48 PM mikechell has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 3515 of 5179 (759908)
06-16-2015 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 3513 by mikechell
06-15-2015 9:48 PM


Re: Another one bites the dust.
I said that they didn't always weigh the consequences sensibly. But they are driven by consequences. Someone who has unprotected sex (for example) does, after all, want to get laid. They may be underestimating their risk of also getting an STD. If they had a much higher estimate of the likelihood of this, they would behave differently (as we can see by considering the extreme case where they believed that if they did so they would certainly contract HIV, herpes, and Exploding Penis Syndrome). By informing them of the statistics, we may change their behavior. Hence sex ed.
Now if we're thinking about gun control, and the claim is made that guns make us safer (without reference to other benefits such as making nice loud bangs and being useful for hunting ducks) then it should be possible to weigh the costs and benefits on the same scale. Maybe this is worth trying to do.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3513 by mikechell, posted 06-15-2015 9:48 PM mikechell has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3516 by Jon, posted 06-16-2015 7:14 AM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 3518 by mikechell, posted 06-16-2015 8:12 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 3516 of 5179 (759920)
06-16-2015 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 3515 by Dr Adequate
06-16-2015 12:08 AM


Re: Another one bites the dust.
More crap.
Even when a person is aware of all the known risks, they still often engage in the risky behavior.
But that's because people aren't risk-reward analyzing machines; they're human beings.
You and I both know that over 3000 people are going to die in car accidents today. And yet we're both going to hop in our cars and go for a ride.
Telling someone they are wrong to own a gun for protection isn't any more likely to get them to give up their guns than telling someone else they are wrong to drive for pleasure is going to get them to give up their wheels.
The whole issue is a pointless waste of time. Energy is better spent making guns and gun storage safer, making neighborhoods safer so people feel less need for guns, and so forth. Just like energy is better spent improving car safety, intersection safety, setting speed limits, and implementing better public transportation than trying to convince people to stop driving.
If you stick to your current path you'll accomplish nothing, and you'll have spent a good deal of time and effort doing it.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3515 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-16-2015 12:08 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3520 by ringo, posted 06-16-2015 12:19 PM Jon has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 3517 of 5179 (759921)
06-16-2015 7:34 AM


Daily Vehicle Deaths
Just to correct some erroneous information posted above, on average approximately 90 people are killed in motor vehicle related accidents each day in the US.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 3519 by Theodoric, posted 06-16-2015 9:04 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 3526 by Jon, posted 06-16-2015 7:43 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 3518 of 5179 (759923)
06-16-2015 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 3515 by Dr Adequate
06-16-2015 12:08 AM


Re: Another one bites the dust.
I said that they didn't always weigh the consequences sensibly. But they are driven by consequences.
No ... you said ...
In the real world, people's actions are motivated by their assessment of the likelihood of the consequences of their actions. Sometimes they get that assessment wrong. Providing them with facts is the only way, or at least the only honest way, to help them to do it right.
Everything I listed is CONSTANTLY discussed on TV, in classrooms and through magazine and e-zine articles. Yet, everyday we see that all those educated people are still doing those actions.
In the real world ... people don't even THINK of consequences, before OR after whatever actions they take. They're always SOOO surprised when they get caught, or someone shows up at their door with a baby. Their relatives are SOOO surprised that this happened.
People are SOOO ticked off that a person is wrestled to the ground after being REPEATEDLY told by a police man to lie down. If they'd just done as told, they probably would've been let go after a few questions. They KNOW what's going to happen, and they still do the most stupid thing possible.
People are idiots. And when one of those idiots tries to break into MY house, tries to hurt MY wife, that will be one more dead idiot. I will have no remorse in MY action, because I have trained and can use my weapon appropriately.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3515 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-16-2015 12:08 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3521 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-16-2015 1:01 PM mikechell has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 3519 of 5179 (759929)
06-16-2015 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 3517 by Percy
06-16-2015 7:34 AM


Re: Daily Vehicle Deaths
As I said before using invalid statistics makes the argument invalid. Especially when the statistics are off by orders of magnitude,
And if you look at the statistics, even though there are more vehicles on the road and more miles driven, automobile fatalities are drastically down since the 1970's. The reason for this is improved safety regulations and licensing requirements. Items that are absent from guns for the most part.
Motor vehicle fatality rate in U.S. by year - Wikipedia

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3517 by Percy, posted 06-16-2015 7:34 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 3520 of 5179 (759967)
06-16-2015 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 3516 by Jon
06-16-2015 7:14 AM


Re: Another one bites the dust.
Jon writes:
But that's because people aren't risk-reward analyzing machines;
Sure they are. They're just bad at it.
Jon writes:
Telling someone they are wrong to own a gun for protection isn't any more likely to get them to give up their guns than telling someone else they are wrong to drive for pleasure is going to get them to give up their wheels.
The whole issue is a pointless waste of time. Energy is better spent making guns and gun storage safer, making neighborhoods safer so people feel less need for guns, and so forth.
You contradict yourself. If you can't convince people that guns are dangerous, how can you convince them to buy safer guns?
Edited by ringo, : Changed "can" to "can't". That would have been confusing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3516 by Jon, posted 06-16-2015 7:14 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3525 by Jon, posted 06-16-2015 6:46 PM ringo has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 3521 of 5179 (759975)
06-16-2015 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 3518 by mikechell
06-16-2015 8:12 AM


Re: Another one bites the dust.
No ... you said ...
Er ... that would be the same thing.
Everything I listed is CONSTANTLY discussed on TV, in classrooms and through magazine and e-zine articles.
Really? No-one has ever told me exactly how dangerous it is to jay-walk. I can't remember the last time someone told me the statistics associated with unprotected sex. Oh, and I only found out a few weeks ago that herpes is incurable. Who knew? Well, doctors apparently. I think it's a fact that should be more widely known.
In the real world ... people don't even THINK of consequences
Of course they do. They just focus on particular consequences while neglecting others. The guy who agrees to unprotected sex is thinking of consequences, namely "I'm gonna get laid". The jaywalker is thinking of consequences "I wanna get to the other side of the road."
People are idiots
Many people are indeed idiots, and don't do a proper cost-benefit analysis even of things that can severely affect their well-being. Which brings us back to the subject of gun ownership.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3518 by mikechell, posted 06-16-2015 8:12 AM mikechell has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3522 by mikechell, posted 06-16-2015 2:25 PM Dr Adequate has replied

mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 3522 of 5179 (759993)
06-16-2015 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 3521 by Dr Adequate
06-16-2015 1:01 PM


Re: Another one bites the dust.
No-one has ever told me exactly how dangerous it is to jay-walk. I can't remember the last time someone told me the statistics associated with unprotected sex. Oh, and I only found out a few weeks ago that herpes is incurable.
Alright ... then I stand corrected. Jay-walking was taught to me in early times, and is, in fact taught to grade schoolers every year. So I am wrong that it's general knowledge. It's only knowledge to those who made it through grade school, I guess.
There are numerous commercials that talk about unprotected sex on the TV all the time. So, I guess I am wrong there, too. It's only common knowledge to those who pay attention to their world, and not just to themselves.
The fact that Herpes is incurable was taught to me in middle school, so I don't expect someone who didn't get through grade school to know middle school knowledge, my apologies. But it is on those commercials listed above, oh, never mind. I actually pass a billboard on I-4 about it, too ... do you drive a car?
I keep forgetting the Common Sense is lost on the faithful.
I know the dangers of owning a gun. I know that, in my hands, those dangers will be visited upon trespassers and criminals who endanger my home, wife and property. Where I live, it is a necessary home protection device. One I hope to never need, but will be grateful I have if it is needed.
Edited by mikechell, : No reason given.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3521 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-16-2015 1:01 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3523 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-16-2015 3:40 PM mikechell has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 3523 of 5179 (760003)
06-16-2015 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 3522 by mikechell
06-16-2015 2:25 PM


Re: Another one bites the dust.
There are numerous commercials that talk about unprotected sex on the TV all the time. So, I guess I am wrong there, too. It's only common knowledge to those who pay attention to their world, and not just to themselves.
The fact that Herpes is incurable was taught to me in middle school, so I don't expect someone who didn't get through grade school to know middle school knowledge, my apologies. But it is on those commercials listed above, oh, never mind. I actually pass a billboard on I-4 about it, too ... do you drive a car?
Yes, but not in Florida. I may also watch different TV shows from you. Y'know, with different commercials. I may even have gone to a different middle school from you. Now you think about it, do you see how that's possible?
If you're going to try to be offensive, you should also try to be better at it.
I know the dangers of owning a gun. I know that, in my hands, those dangers will be visited upon trespassers and criminals who endanger my home, wife and property.
Unless they shoot first. Or your wife shoots you first. Or you shoot yourself first. Or someone steals your gun first, which statistically is about four times more likely than you using it for self-defense. Perhaps you need more guns to protect your guns with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3522 by mikechell, posted 06-16-2015 2:25 PM mikechell has not replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 3524 of 5179 (760007)
06-16-2015 4:54 PM


The mall cop in Iowa who gunned down a 20 year old woman who reported him for sexual harassment was an 'Open carry, second amendment' gun nut.
He got fired because he was sexually harassing her.
Iowa mall security guard allegedly shoots dead children’s museum employee after weeks of harassing her: friends — New York Daily News

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 3525 of 5179 (760013)
06-16-2015 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 3520 by ringo
06-16-2015 12:19 PM


Re: Another one bites the dust.
If you can't convince people that guns are dangerous, how can you convince them to buy safer guns?
Just make the guns safer.
A lot of the safety features on cars aren't plainly apparent to consumers. But people still buy cars with safety features because it's just a reality that that's how cars are made.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3520 by ringo, posted 06-16-2015 12:19 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3528 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-16-2015 10:32 PM Jon has not replied
 Message 3540 by ringo, posted 06-17-2015 3:23 PM Jon has replied

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