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Author Topic:   Evolution Requires Reduction in Genetic Diversity
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 897 of 1034 (759559)
06-13-2015 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 896 by Faith
06-13-2015 3:12 AM


Re: Where is your argument...
You cannot get any sense out of a zealot. It is my own insanity that causes me to try.
I will be happy to read your response tomorrow. It ought to be clear where you are failing to make your point. Why not try explaining those issues rather than just calling others stupid. Or do both! But the explanation is what is lacking.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 896 by Faith, posted 06-13-2015 3:12 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 901 of 1034 (759632)
06-13-2015 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 893 by Faith
06-13-2015 1:31 AM


Re: macroevolution not impossible -- it has been observed.
They get eaten in my scenario too, but that doesn't make their getting eaten the cause of the herd's adaptation to its niche.
I'm afraid that such facts mean exactly what you are denying.
Slow gazelles getting eaten is selection. All that is necessary to recognize natural selection is to understand that there is competition for life. All you need to understand the affect on the herd's adaptation is to accept that parents have a good chance of passing their own characteristics onto their offspring.
The above seem to me to be reasonable. And if they are accepted the premise of natural selection follows inevitably.
Or viewed another way, if slow gazelles disappear, then the faster ones are left. This alone would represent a change in allele frequencies that would exactly match the situation if the fast gazelles all decided to move to a Samoan island, which is exactly the situation you claim results in micro-evolution. Accordingly the herds genetic make up must change in response to the selection pressure exerted by a fast predator.
If you have some way to avoid this conclusion, let's hear it.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by Admin, : Fix grammar. "...change represent a change allele frequencies..." => "...represent a change in allele frequencies..."

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 893 by Faith, posted 06-13-2015 1:31 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 902 of 1034 (759633)
06-13-2015 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 893 by Faith
06-13-2015 1:31 AM


Re: macroevolution not impossible -- it has been observed.
One can't speak of a given outcome's "needing" a particular precondition? Funny, I would have thought there was plenty of room in the English language for such statements.
It is not rational to exclude selection on the basis that the outcome you are arguing for does not "need" it. Selection happens, and if that interferes with your desired outcome, then your outcome is wrong.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 893 by Faith, posted 06-13-2015 1:31 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 921 of 1034 (759714)
06-14-2015 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 920 by Admin
06-14-2015 3:42 PM


Re: macroevolution not impossible -- it has been observed.
Faith writes:
There is no such thing as a genetically new species in the sense of macroevolution which speciation supposedly represents.
Admin writes:
Okay, I think I can piece together a statement of your position on speciation now:
A new species can form from an existing species as long as the existing species possesses sufficient diversity, but the new species will remain genetically compatible with the original species, i.e., the new species will only have alleles already in the main population. This means that although interbreeding remains possible, it doesn't happen for either physical or behavioral reasons.
I don't think your summary is correct. You are making the same mistake I have repeatedly made with any number of people here.
Someone says something incorrect and then I follow up by assuming the nearest logical thing is what they actually meant making as small a tweak as possible. Nine out of ten times, this assumption is wrong because there is no actual correct or near correct interpretation. In truth, what Faith is really saying is that evolution does not make new kinds, and that the definition of speciation as producing non-inter fertile groups is a sham.
It is not clear to me what Faith's limitation actually means to the theory of evolution. Nobody is claiming that a cat can evolve or did evolve from a dog. Instead we believe that all mammals came from a common ancestor that was neither cat nor dog. Perhaps dogs and cats have a 'relatively' close common ancestor. (Closer than some randomly chosen mammal).
Could man have evolved from a non-hominin, ape ancestor? I'm not sure that Faith's contention, as quoted here argues against such thing. Maybe homo sapiens could actually breed with said ancestor if it were still in existence. Yet clearly, according to Genesis, men and apes are different kinds.
In truth, nothing Faith relies on makes one bit of sense. But in particular, natural selection is the most well observed and documented portion of the theory of evolution. It is the portion that Darwin actually observed while coming up with his theory. Your examples of gerbil population is only one good example of what happens without selection. Faith is simply chewing on the teeth of the saw

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 920 by Admin, posted 06-14-2015 3:42 PM Admin has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 927 of 1034 (759748)
06-14-2015 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 926 by Faith
06-14-2015 9:11 PM


Re: Back to HBD's Chart
and your non-moderator-style blaming it all on me does NOT encourage participation in what is really your own personal viewpoint.
If Admin were not pointing out your errors in logic and your inconsistent arguments, the rest of us would be doing so. And we'd probably be using the kinds of insults you are using to describe us. I applaud Percy's attempt to maintain order and to try to convert this discussion into some kind of orderly exchange of arguments.
This thread is entirely about your take on the theory of evolution. It is your responsibility to provide a meaningful explanation of that position. If nobody is getting it, and there are some pretty smart people here including PaulK whom you in the past have said understands, then the failure is yours.
I maintain that you don't have an argument. When your assertions are challenged, a couple of exchanges always results in your falling back on the 'you don't get it' crutch when you have no answers. That happens because it is quite easy find inconsistencies in your position as well as evidence that your assertions are simply wrong.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 926 by Faith, posted 06-14-2015 9:11 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 928 by Faith, posted 06-14-2015 9:40 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 934 of 1034 (759813)
06-15-2015 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 928 by Faith
06-14-2015 9:40 PM


Re: Back to HBD's Chart
, but your track record here is the worst of the worst so your opinion on the procedures is the least of the least in my judgment
That's fine with me. However, the track record is readily available for anyone to peruse. I'm quite comfortable with mine.
BACK OFF AND LET'S SEE IF HBD ANSWERS MY QUERIES.
Absolutely. Almost everything I have to say is well covered by other posters anyway.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 928 by Faith, posted 06-14-2015 9:40 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 956 of 1034 (759947)
06-16-2015 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 954 by Faith
06-16-2015 10:33 AM


Re: recovery
This is what I've been describing forever, but apparently you haven't noticed. If genetic drift randomly destroys individuals it's not quite the same, although I have thought it similar enough to say so, and HBD disagreed.
Small wonder HBD disagreed. Drift does not destroy individuals. Drift has to do with which individuals get born with respect to traits that have essentially no fitness component. Instead drift has to do with which individuals are born.
That's the only example anyone can come up with. Raises some questions about how mutations manage to show up for the occasion.
Re-read the discussion. The mutation did not show up for the occasion. The tan and brown varieties both existed and interbred with each other. The description is a classic example of selection at work. Conditions produced a situation where a neutral trait became instead a beneficial trait.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 954 by Faith, posted 06-16-2015 10:33 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 957 by Faith, posted 06-16-2015 11:36 AM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 958 by Faith, posted 06-16-2015 11:37 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 960 of 1034 (759980)
06-16-2015 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 958 by Faith
06-16-2015 11:37 AM


Re: recovery
You read a different source about the light anddark mice.
When this discussion comes up here, I generally challenge people on either side of the debate who claim that the mutation showed up on time. That's not the way it happened and I doubt you can cite a credible source that claims it did happen that way.
You might well find some creationists claiming evilutionists believe such a thing, but wouldn't that be just a strawman argument? Oh wait, that was your argument.
You're right, all HBD said was they are "removed from the population" But that isn't what HBD disagreed with since I didn't say that. You don't read very well.
Isn't the real problem here your misunderstanding of the term drift? Drift is rather important to the discussion. If you knew what the term meant what would cause you to talk about drift causing individuals to die off? Yes you can argue about what I thought HBD disagreed with you about, but that's not really relevant to the topic, is it?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 958 by Faith, posted 06-16-2015 11:37 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 968 of 1034 (760108)
06-17-2015 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 964 by Faith
06-17-2015 3:47 PM


Re: Back to HBD's Chart: Trying New Wording
DRIFT:
Subtracts from B, A doesn't change
The statement above makes no sense whatsoever.
Selection replaces one trait with another or its allele with another
Nope. Not even close to a good definition of selection or its results. Yes there is an attendant reduction in diversity.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 964 by Faith, posted 06-17-2015 3:47 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 970 of 1034 (760117)
06-17-2015 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 969 by PaulK
06-17-2015 5:16 PM


Re: Back to HBD's Chart: Trying New Wording
For drift, I will just point out that in reality drift will affect A.
Yes. If we are eliminating all other effects, then of course drift must happen in all populations.
And perhaps there is a tendency in smaller populations that rare alleles are more likely to be lost or that the allele frequencies will vary more over time than in a large population, just because of the way statistics in large and not so large numbers works. But there is no way to predict how long it would take to expunge any particular trait absent selection.
Decrease in diversity over time within a population but over an unpredictable time scale, unpredictable affect on the difference between two populations with an increase being most likely?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 969 by PaulK, posted 06-17-2015 5:16 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 971 by PaulK, posted 06-18-2015 1:06 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 980 of 1034 (760311)
06-20-2015 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 974 by herebedragons
06-18-2015 10:47 PM


Re: Back to HBD's Chart: Trying New Wording
SELECTION: My first take:
Selection replaces one trait with another or its allele with another, so it subtracts diversity from B
Most of the time this is how selection works.
Perhaps I am looking at a wording problem that you find insignificant, but selection does not replace anything. Selection is operates on traits already present and favors animals with trait over animals with variations not including the trait. It does tend to subtract diversity other than in those special cases you discuss.
But replacing traits? No, that requires selection in combination with mutation or other forces. Maybe 'displace' would be a better verb.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 974 by herebedragons, posted 06-18-2015 10:47 PM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 981 by Faith, posted 06-20-2015 7:50 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 982 by Admin, posted 06-20-2015 7:53 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 983 by herebedragons, posted 06-20-2015 9:54 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 984 of 1034 (760329)
06-20-2015 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 981 by Faith
06-20-2015 7:50 AM


Re: Back to HBD's Chart: Trying New Wording
HBD got it right: alleles for two traits already available, one replaces the other. Trust you to misread me as usual.
As I wrote, 'replace' seems to be a bad way to express the selection because it does not indicate why the result of selection can be to reduce diversity. Literally replacing one trait with another would simply preserve diversity. In the population undergoing selection, we may have multiple traits existing and selection tends to increase the appearance of one of the traits at the expense of one or more others. Replace, in my view does not get anywhere close to expressing that. Displace seems to work better or would any wording expressing a trade off.
More to the point, what is your problem, Faith? I thought your wording was off, so I asked a question. Here is the beginning of HBD's post:
HBD writes:
Yea, I struggled a little with the wording but decided not to make an issue of it at this time.
I understand that you have a problem in particular with my making corrections to what you are saying, but you probably should just get over that.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 981 by Faith, posted 06-20-2015 7:50 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1032 of 1034 (771189)
10-21-2015 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1023 by RAZD
09-30-2015 8:44 AM


Re: Except that they aren't ...
I was wrong. Bad stuff deleted
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1023 by RAZD, posted 09-30-2015 8:44 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1033 of 1034 (771190)
10-21-2015 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1023 by RAZD
09-30-2015 8:44 AM


Re: Except that they aren't ...
In some cases pre-adaptation can occur, such as the black pocket mice, when individuals benefit from a new trait that allows them to survive and breed in a new ecology, but is by no means the normal path of evolution.
Isn't this the more normal case? Species really are not homogeneous, so at any time there are always variants. A change in ecology can produce new natural selection winners and losers. Doesn't that explain at least some of the correlation between birds with big beaks and the appearance of tough nuts to crack?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1023 by RAZD, posted 09-30-2015 8:44 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1034 by RAZD, posted 10-22-2015 5:04 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
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