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Author | Topic: Jihadists must die, --- but our real enemies are the Qur’an and Bible. | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Greatest I am Member (Idle past 301 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
mikechell
Well put. What of the Qur'an. Do you agree that there would be value in advocating changes within it as possibly suggested by the more peaceful left wing of Islam. RegardsDL
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mikechell Inactive Member |
Theodoric wrote: That invasion of Iraq went so well for the people there it is surprising that all are not sending us gifts all the time.
The first one DID go well. I was there for Desert Storm. We freed Kuwait in a few days. We should have been allowed to go the rest of the way then. "No," we were told ... "the Iraq government will see the error of their ways, they've promised us."
Theodoric wrote:The US government is responsible for the growth of Islamic radicals.
Quite possibly ... but not JUST the US Gov. But the U.N. and all the nations who pulled out before we finished the job. Every time we get ahead, we're pulled back. You can call it a conspiracy theory if you want ... but 12 years in the USMC proved to me otherwise. Ringo ... my answers to Theodoric pretty much go to your responses, too.evidence over faith ... observation over theory
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mikechell Inactive Member |
GIA wrote: mikechell
Perhaps you saw something I didn't write.Well put. What of the Qur'an. Do you agree that there would be value in advocating changes within it as possibly suggested by the more peaceful left wing of Islam. I do not think the bible is a "bad" book. But that people can twists it's messages to convince others to do evil things. I also do not think the qur'an is a "bad" book. Like ANY religious book, it can be interpreted in ways that convince followers to commit evil acts. It is NOT the books and words them selves that cause the harm. It is the power hungry who use those books to cause harm. evidence over faith ... observation over theory
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MrHambre Member (Idle past 1421 days) Posts: 1495 From: Framingham, MA, USA Joined: |
That invasion of Iraq went so well for the people there it is surprising that all are not sending us gifts all the time.
It's such a shame that rebel gunfire keeps knocking our "You're Welcome!" signs off the poles.
The US government is responsible for the growth of Islamic radicals. Prior to the invasion of Iraq we had just a couple small groups that we had to worry about. Now we have radicalized millions.
Long before that, the State Department decided that moderate pan-Arab socialism in the Middle East was too docile and 70s. So they spiced things up by tooling up the mujaheedin in Afghanistan to fight the Soviets, and that nationalist, fundamentalist warlord whackjobbery has been rockin' the house (and the Pentagon budget) ever since.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
I wrote
GDR writes:
You replied
Yes it is an evolving story, but it is also a variety of stories written by many authors over many centuries. There is history, there is allegory, there is poetry, there are hymns and Job reads like a play. I don't accept and reject what I like. I understand the Bible through what has been recorded about the life, times and teaching of Jesus. As I said earlier you can't square the idea of God commanding genocide and public stonings with what Jesus teaches. You insist on arguing against Christianity by arguing against a fundamentalist view of the Bible a view held by a minority of Christians.Not just the literalist fundamental view but basically the literalist view believed by the vast majority of Christians. For example, I show the immorality of vicarious redemption which is a concept believed by all who say they believe in Jesus as a messiah. That is a part of the creed that all Christians have is it not? Your response addressed an entirely different subject than what I had written about. I was addressing the fundamentalist/literalist view of understanding the Bible. First off, your post suggests that your understanding of messiah isn't actually correct. The messiah is not a term suggesting any kind of divinity. The messiah was to be the one anointed by God to lead the Jews against their enemies, conquering them and rebuilding the Temple. There is no record of anyone at the time that believed that the messiah would be in any way divine. It isn't just the belief that Jesus was the Messiah that He is now believed to be part of the Trinity. There is much more to it that that. However, I digress.... The idea of vicarious redemption or atonement theology has always been a subject of much debate. I simply see it this way. Jesus went into Jerusalem as a great act of faith knowing what happened to those who upset those in power. He believed that in doing that that God would in some way validate and vindicate His life and message. It is the Christian belief that God did just that through His resurrection into a new form of life. Without the resurrection Jesus is simply another in a fairly long list of failed messiahs. The resurrected Jesus is the first born of the new creation at the end of time as we know it when it is believed that this world will be renewed and where death and evil are no longer part of it. Through Jesus, God was establishing His kingdom of those who love His truth, justice, love etc and that kingdom would be one that would stretch from this world into the next. It wasn't God that put Jesus to death it was the Romans. It was God that resurrected Jesus saying to all of us that death does not have the last word. If you really are interested in this, here is a talk given by N T Wright, a man who Newsweek called the leading New Testament scholar in the wolrd.
The Servant and Jesus You might want to skip down to the heading Studying Jesus Today: Introduction. CheersGreg He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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mikechell Inactive Member |
Long before that, the State Department decided that moderate pan-Arab socialism in the Middle East was too docile and 70s. So they spiced things up by tooling up the mujaheedin in Afghanistan to fight the Soviets, and that nationalist, fundamentalist warlord whackjobbery has been rockin' the house (and the Pentagon budget) ever since. And people say my attitude is paranoid, conspiracy theorist !!!Just in case everyone forgot the Cold War, and Russia's desire for European conquest ... look to Crimea and the Ukraine. You are right, though. The Pentagon and the U.S. Government have spent WAY too much money trying to help the rest of the world. Unfortunately, no one will listen to those of us who say we should just close our borders, withdraw from all other Countries and focus on our own problems. Let the rest of the world police itself. evidence over faith ... observation over theory
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 301 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
mikechell
Thanks for this. I see both books you mention as creating the society we now have which is a homophobic one, slowly moving away from that injustice. --- finally, --- and a misogynous one that is still not ready to grant women equality. Both books are used by churches and mosques to indoctrinate people into their unjust and immoral theologies. That is why I think changing their messages might do us good. I admit that I am not getting much support for my view. Disappointing that. RegardsDL Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.
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mikechell Inactive Member |
Through Jesus, God was establishing His kingdom of those who love His truth, justice, love etc and that kingdom would be one that would stretch from this world into the next.
So ... which of the religions gets to "move on" into his kingdom?Jewish (which Jesus purportedly was) Catholic Pentecostal Methodist Lutheran Evangelist Presbyterian Jehovah's Witness Muslim ... oops, that was Mohamed, not Jesus ... so they're out. Did I miss any of the hell-bound?evidence over faith ... observation over theory
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 301 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
GDR
I did broaden the literalist angle. Thanks for that link. I will have a look. For here, I disagree with your, ----" It wasn't God that put Jesus to death it was the Romans." 1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. The Romans did not choose Jesus to die. God did and he would also have had to decide who was going to do the killing before he created them. Immoralities like this is what prompts Gnostic Christians to see God as a vile demiurge. Only a prick of a God would send his son instead of stepping up himself. As above so below. Sons are to bury fathers and not fathers bury sons. RegardsDL
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MrHambre Member (Idle past 1421 days) Posts: 1495 From: Framingham, MA, USA Joined: |
mikechell writes:
Well, that may be. But the fact that the US chipped in to help the Afghan resistance against the Soviets is no conspiracy theory. It's all a matter of public record. And people say my attitude is paranoid, conspiracy theorist !!! The US ambassador to Afghanistan was killed in 1979 when the Soviet-backed Afghani police botched his rescue from kidnappers. Needless to say, that didn't help relations between the Soviets' shaky puppet government in Kabul and the US State Department. The shit hit the fan for the Afghani government soon after that, and the Soviets sent troops to stabilize the situation. Throughout the early 80s, the mujaheedin got arms and aid from various countries, including the USA. Arab rich kid Osama bin Laden showed up and started networking with the intent of putting together a jihadist army. So the USA thought it was fighting the last battle of the Cold War, but what it was really doing was providing training for its next enemy. Don't take my word for it, just read the 9/11 Commission Report.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
There was a huge difference between the scope and aims of Desert Storm and the invasion of Iraq. We actually had a reason to push Iraq out of Kuwait, but to say it would have been a walk in the park to conquer Iraq at that time is as naive as the assumption that the Iraq war would be easy.
but 12 years in the USMC proved to me otherwise.
Gives you no special insight into geopolitics or foreign policy moves of the US government.You are hitting all the wingnut points. The evil U.N. Oh no. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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mikechell Inactive Member |
You are hitting all the wingnut points.
I suppose it's a case of right turning wingnuts, and left turning (wrong direction) wingnuts like you. evidence over faith ... observation over theory
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
GDR writes: Through Jesus, God was establishing His kingdom of those who love His truth, justice, love etc and that kingdom would be one that would stretch from this world into the next.mikechell writes: So ... which of the religions gets to "move on" into his kingdom?Jewish (which Jesus purportedly was) Catholic Pentecostal Methodist Lutheran Evangelist Presbyterian Jehovah's Witness Muslim ... oops, that was Mohamed, not Jesus ... so they're out. Did I miss any of the hell-bound? It would help if you would even read the part you quote. I said, "those who love His truth justice love etc". I said nothing about adhering to any specific doctrine. If you read the last part of Matthew 25 about separating the sheep from the goats it is obvious it is about the heart. What pleases God is those that love sacrificially simply because in their heart they know it is the right thing, not for any thought of reward. Here are a couple of CS Lewis quotes. This quote is from his Narnia series and is from "The Last Battle". Aslan is the Christ figure and Tash is Darth Vader representing the dark or evil side. The speaker is Emeth who was a soldier serving Tash. Here is what Lewis writes: quote: Here is another Lewis quote from "The Great Divorce". quote: Simply put again, it is loving, truthful, just, and kind hearts that make us right with God, it is not about having the right doctrine. See my signature for a Biblical quote that I contend is consistent with the overall context that we are led to in the Biblical narrative.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
GIA writes: For here, I disagree with your, ----" It wasn't God that put Jesus to death it was the Romans." 1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. The Romans did not choose Jesus to die. God did and he would also have had to decide who was going to do the killing before he created them. Immoralities like this is what prompts Gnostic Christians to see God as a vile demiurge. Only a prick of a God would send his son instead of stepping up himself. Here is a quote from the Gospel of John chap 1.
quote: It is clear that it was the "Word", (or wisdom) of God that existed from the beginning. John goes on to say that the "Word" became flesh. The Bible is clear that Jesus was born of a woman. He had a beginning. He did however embody the "Word" or Wisdom" of God the Father - the Father who He talked about and the Father He prayed to. It wasn't that God sent His Son to die, it was simply what happened to those who ticked off the wrong people and God made it clear that the wrong people don't have the last word by resurrecting Jesus.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
So not going to address the meat of my post at all?
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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