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Author Topic:   Jihadists must die, --- but our real enemies are the Qur’an and Bible.
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 271 of 375 (759988)
06-16-2015 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by mikechell
06-16-2015 12:41 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
mikechell
Well put.
What of the Qur'an.
Do you agree that there would be value in advocating changes within it as possibly suggested by the more peaceful left wing of Islam.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by mikechell, posted 06-16-2015 12:41 PM mikechell has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by mikechell, posted 06-16-2015 2:08 PM Greatest I am has replied

mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 272 of 375 (759990)
06-16-2015 2:03 PM


Theodoric wrote: That invasion of Iraq went so well for the people there it is surprising that all are not sending us gifts all the time.
The first one DID go well. I was there for Desert Storm. We freed Kuwait in a few days. We should have been allowed to go the rest of the way then. "No," we were told ... "the Iraq government will see the error of their ways, they've promised us."
Theodoric wrote:The US government is responsible for the growth of Islamic radicals.
Quite possibly ... but not JUST the US Gov. But the U.N. and all the nations who pulled out before we finished the job. Every time we get ahead, we're pulled back. You can call it a conspiracy theory if you want ... but 12 years in the USMC proved to me otherwise.
Ringo ... my answers to Theodoric pretty much go to your responses, too.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by Theodoric, posted 06-16-2015 5:23 PM mikechell has replied

mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 273 of 375 (759991)
06-16-2015 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Greatest I am
06-16-2015 1:39 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
GIA wrote: mikechell
Well put.
What of the Qur'an.
Do you agree that there would be value in advocating changes within it as possibly suggested by the more peaceful left wing of Islam.
Perhaps you saw something I didn't write.
I do not think the bible is a "bad" book. But that people can twists it's messages to convince others to do evil things.
I also do not think the qur'an is a "bad" book. Like ANY religious book, it can be interpreted in ways that convince followers to commit evil acts.
It is NOT the books and words them selves that cause the harm. It is the power hungry who use those books to cause harm.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Greatest I am, posted 06-16-2015 1:39 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Greatest I am, posted 06-16-2015 2:52 PM mikechell has not replied

MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 274 of 375 (759995)
06-16-2015 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by Theodoric
06-16-2015 12:46 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
That invasion of Iraq went so well for the people there it is surprising that all are not sending us gifts all the time.
It's such a shame that rebel gunfire keeps knocking our "You're Welcome!" signs off the poles.
The US government is responsible for the growth of Islamic radicals. Prior to the invasion of Iraq we had just a couple small groups that we had to worry about. Now we have radicalized millions.
Long before that, the State Department decided that moderate pan-Arab socialism in the Middle East was too docile and 70s. So they spiced things up by tooling up the mujaheedin in Afghanistan to fight the Soviets, and that nationalist, fundamentalist warlord whackjobbery has been rockin' the house (and the Pentagon budget) ever since.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Theodoric, posted 06-16-2015 12:46 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by mikechell, posted 06-16-2015 2:51 PM MrHambre has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 275 of 375 (759996)
06-16-2015 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Greatest I am
06-16-2015 11:29 AM


I wrote
GDR writes:
Yes it is an evolving story, but it is also a variety of stories written by many authors over many centuries. There is history, there is allegory, there is poetry, there are hymns and Job reads like a play.
I don't accept and reject what I like. I understand the Bible through what has been recorded about the life, times and teaching of Jesus. As I said earlier you can't square the idea of God commanding genocide and public stonings with what Jesus teaches.
You insist on arguing against Christianity by arguing against a fundamentalist view of the Bible a view held by a minority of Christians.
You replied
Not just the literalist fundamental view but basically the literalist view believed by the vast majority of Christians.
For example, I show the immorality of vicarious redemption which is a concept believed by all who say they believe in Jesus as a messiah.
That is a part of the creed that all Christians have is it not?
Your response addressed an entirely different subject than what I had written about. I was addressing the fundamentalist/literalist view of understanding the Bible.
First off, your post suggests that your understanding of messiah isn't actually correct. The messiah is not a term suggesting any kind of divinity. The messiah was to be the one anointed by God to lead the Jews against their enemies, conquering them and rebuilding the Temple. There is no record of anyone at the time that believed that the messiah would be in any way divine. It isn't just the belief that Jesus was the Messiah that He is now believed to be part of the Trinity. There is much more to it that that. However, I digress....
The idea of vicarious redemption or atonement theology has always been a subject of much debate. I simply see it this way. Jesus went into Jerusalem as a great act of faith knowing what happened to those who upset those in power. He believed that in doing that that God would in some way validate and vindicate His life and message.
It is the Christian belief that God did just that through His resurrection into a new form of life. Without the resurrection Jesus is simply another in a fairly long list of failed messiahs. The resurrected Jesus is the first born of the new creation at the end of time as we know it when it is believed that this world will be renewed and where death and evil are no longer part of it. Through Jesus, God was establishing His kingdom of those who love His truth, justice, love etc and that kingdom would be one that would stretch from this world into the next.
It wasn't God that put Jesus to death it was the Romans. It was God that resurrected Jesus saying to all of us that death does not have the last word.
If you really are interested in this, here is a talk given by N T Wright, a man who Newsweek called the leading New Testament scholar in the wolrd.
The Servant and Jesus
You might want to skip down to the heading Studying Jesus Today: Introduction.
Cheers
Greg

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Greatest I am, posted 06-16-2015 11:29 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by mikechell, posted 06-16-2015 3:01 PM GDR has replied
 Message 279 by Greatest I am, posted 06-16-2015 3:02 PM GDR has replied

mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 276 of 375 (759997)
06-16-2015 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by MrHambre
06-16-2015 2:35 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
Long before that, the State Department decided that moderate pan-Arab socialism in the Middle East was too docile and 70s. So they spiced things up by tooling up the mujaheedin in Afghanistan to fight the Soviets, and that nationalist, fundamentalist warlord whackjobbery has been rockin' the house (and the Pentagon budget) ever since.
And people say my attitude is paranoid, conspiracy theorist !!!
Just in case everyone forgot the Cold War, and Russia's desire for European conquest ... look to Crimea and the Ukraine.
You are right, though. The Pentagon and the U.S. Government have spent WAY too much money trying to help the rest of the world.
Unfortunately, no one will listen to those of us who say we should just close our borders, withdraw from all other Countries and focus on our own problems. Let the rest of the world police itself.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by MrHambre, posted 06-16-2015 2:35 PM MrHambre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by MrHambre, posted 06-16-2015 4:42 PM mikechell has not replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 277 of 375 (759998)
06-16-2015 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by mikechell
06-16-2015 2:08 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
mikechell
Thanks for this.
I see both books you mention as creating the society we now have which is a homophobic one, slowly moving away from that injustice. --- finally, --- and a misogynous one that is still not ready to grant women equality.
Both books are used by churches and mosques to indoctrinate people into their unjust and immoral theologies.
That is why I think changing their messages might do us good.
I admit that I am not getting much support for my view. Disappointing that.
Regards
DL
Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by mikechell, posted 06-16-2015 2:08 PM mikechell has not replied

mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 278 of 375 (759999)
06-16-2015 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by GDR
06-16-2015 2:45 PM


Through Jesus, God was establishing His kingdom of those who love His truth, justice, love etc and that kingdom would be one that would stretch from this world into the next.
So ... which of the religions gets to "move on" into his kingdom?
Jewish (which Jesus purportedly was)
Catholic
Pentecostal
Methodist
Lutheran
Evangelist
Presbyterian
Jehovah's Witness
Muslim ... oops, that was Mohamed, not Jesus ... so they're out.
Did I miss any of the hell-bound?

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by GDR, posted 06-16-2015 2:45 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by GDR, posted 06-16-2015 9:02 PM mikechell has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 279 of 375 (760000)
06-16-2015 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by GDR
06-16-2015 2:45 PM


GDR
I did broaden the literalist angle.
Thanks for that link. I will have a look.
For here, I disagree with your, ----" It wasn't God that put Jesus to death it was the Romans."
1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
The Romans did not choose Jesus to die. God did and he would also have had to decide who was going to do the killing before he created them.
Immoralities like this is what prompts Gnostic Christians to see God as a vile demiurge. Only a prick of a God would send his son instead of stepping up himself.
As above so below.
Sons are to bury fathers and not fathers bury sons.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by GDR, posted 06-16-2015 2:45 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by GDR, posted 06-16-2015 9:26 PM Greatest I am has replied

MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 280 of 375 (760006)
06-16-2015 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by mikechell
06-16-2015 2:51 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
mikechell writes:
And people say my attitude is paranoid, conspiracy theorist !!!
Well, that may be. But the fact that the US chipped in to help the Afghan resistance against the Soviets is no conspiracy theory. It's all a matter of public record.
The US ambassador to Afghanistan was killed in 1979 when the Soviet-backed Afghani police botched his rescue from kidnappers. Needless to say, that didn't help relations between the Soviets' shaky puppet government in Kabul and the US State Department. The shit hit the fan for the Afghani government soon after that, and the Soviets sent troops to stabilize the situation. Throughout the early 80s, the mujaheedin got arms and aid from various countries, including the USA. Arab rich kid Osama bin Laden showed up and started networking with the intent of putting together a jihadist army. So the USA thought it was fighting the last battle of the Cold War, but what it was really doing was providing training for its next enemy.
Don't take my word for it, just read the 9/11 Commission Report.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by mikechell, posted 06-16-2015 2:51 PM mikechell has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 281 of 375 (760008)
06-16-2015 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by mikechell
06-16-2015 2:03 PM


There was a huge difference between the scope and aims of Desert Storm and the invasion of Iraq. We actually had a reason to push Iraq out of Kuwait, but to say it would have been a walk in the park to conquer Iraq at that time is as naive as the assumption that the Iraq war would be easy.
but 12 years in the USMC proved to me otherwise.
Gives you no special insight into geopolitics or foreign policy moves of the US government.
You are hitting all the wingnut points. The evil U.N. Oh no.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by mikechell, posted 06-16-2015 2:03 PM mikechell has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by mikechell, posted 06-16-2015 8:14 PM Theodoric has replied

mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 282 of 375 (760022)
06-16-2015 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by Theodoric
06-16-2015 5:23 PM


You are hitting all the wingnut points.
I suppose it's a case of right turning wingnuts, and left turning (wrong direction) wingnuts like you.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Theodoric, posted 06-16-2015 5:23 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Theodoric, posted 06-16-2015 9:53 PM mikechell has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 283 of 375 (760027)
06-16-2015 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by mikechell
06-16-2015 3:01 PM


GDR writes:
Through Jesus, God was establishing His kingdom of those who love His truth, justice, love etc and that kingdom would be one that would stretch from this world into the next.
mikechell writes:
So ... which of the religions gets to "move on" into his kingdom?
Jewish (which Jesus purportedly was)
Catholic
Pentecostal
Methodist
Lutheran
Evangelist
Presbyterian
Jehovah's Witness
Muslim ... oops, that was Mohamed, not Jesus ... so they're out.
Did I miss any of the hell-bound?
It would help if you would even read the part you quote. I said, "those who love His truth justice love etc". I said nothing about adhering to any specific doctrine. If you read the last part of Matthew 25 about separating the sheep from the goats it is obvious it is about the heart. What pleases God is those that love sacrificially simply because in their heart they know it is the right thing, not for any thought of reward.
Here are a couple of CS Lewis quotes. This quote is from his Narnia series and is from "The Last Battle". Aslan is the Christ figure and Tash is Darth Vader representing the dark or evil side. The speaker is Emeth who was a soldier serving Tash. Here is what Lewis writes:
quote:
So I went over much grass and many flowers and among all kinds of wholesome and delectable tree till lo! In a narrow place between two rocks there came to meet me a great Lion. The speed of him was like an ostrich, and his size was an elephant’s; his hair was like pure gold that is liquid in the furnace. He was more terrible than the Flaming Mountain of Langour, and in beauty he surpassed all that is in the world even as the rose in bloom surpasses the dust of the desert.
Then I fell at his feet and thought, Surely this is the hour of death, for the Lion (who is worthy of all honour) will know that I have served Tash all my days and not him. Nevertheless, it is better to see the Lion and die than to be Tisroc of the world and live and not to have seen him.
But the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, Son thou art welcome. But I said, Alas, Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash. He answered, Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me.
Then by reason of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one? The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted.
Dost thou understand , Child? I said, Lord, thou knowest how much I understand. But I said also (for the truth constrained me), Yet I have been seeking Tash all my days. Beloved, said the Glorious One, unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek.
Here is another Lewis quote from "The Great Divorce".
quote:
There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.
Simply put again, it is loving, truthful, just, and kind hearts that make us right with God, it is not about having the right doctrine. See my signature for a Biblical quote that I contend is consistent with the overall context that we are led to in the Biblical narrative.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by mikechell, posted 06-16-2015 3:01 PM mikechell has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by mikechell, posted 06-16-2015 11:10 PM GDR has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 284 of 375 (760030)
06-16-2015 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by Greatest I am
06-16-2015 3:02 PM


GIA writes:
For here, I disagree with your, ----" It wasn't God that put Jesus to death it was the Romans."
1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
The Romans did not choose Jesus to die. God did and he would also have had to decide who was going to do the killing before he created them.
Immoralities like this is what prompts Gnostic Christians to see God as a vile demiurge. Only a prick of a God would send his son instead of stepping up himself.
Here is a quote from the Gospel of John chap 1.
quote:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. 6 There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
It is clear that it was the "Word", (or wisdom) of God that existed from the beginning. John goes on to say that the "Word" became flesh. The Bible is clear that Jesus was born of a woman. He had a beginning. He did however embody the "Word" or Wisdom" of God the Father - the Father who He talked about and the Father He prayed to.
It wasn't that God sent His Son to die, it was simply what happened to those who ticked off the wrong people and God made it clear that the wrong people don't have the last word by resurrecting Jesus.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Greatest I am, posted 06-16-2015 3:02 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by Greatest I am, posted 06-17-2015 12:29 PM GDR has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 285 of 375 (760032)
06-16-2015 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by mikechell
06-16-2015 8:14 PM


So not going to address the meat of my post at all?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by mikechell, posted 06-16-2015 8:14 PM mikechell has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by mikechell, posted 06-16-2015 11:06 PM Theodoric has not replied

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