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Author Topic:   What is Christianity?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 76 of 451 (760088)
06-17-2015 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
08-25-2004 10:41 AM


Re: As I see Christianity
jar writes:
Christianity is one of the world's great Religions. For me a short summary would be:
In the beginning, billions and billions of years ago, GOD created this universe. Most likely, the primordal singularity was a thought of GOD.
This may not be the only universe and if there are other universes, they are within GOD and He is within them.
GOD is. The God of the Hebrew, the GOD of the Muslims, infact all of the various GODs out there are GOD.
Two thousand years ago Jesus lived and died for ALL mankind. The promise given, the gift of salvation, was not just for Christians but for ALL. It includes, Jews and Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists, Atheists and Agnostics.
The only conditions are twofold (with the second commandment being a two part one), Love GOD; Love others and love yourself. You may not succeed, but to be saved you have to try to live up to those commandments.
IMHO, Christianity is really simple. There's nothing mysterious about it, nothing that the average person cannot understand, nothing beyond normal capabilities.
One mans idea of "trying to do your best" may not agree with another mans idea.I believe that GOD will be the perfect judge but can WE agree on a consensus of what such a judge will be like? Will this judge himself need correction?

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 08-25-2004 10:41 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 06-18-2015 9:58 AM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 77 of 451 (760093)
06-17-2015 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Phat
06-17-2015 2:51 PM


Re: What We Do & Who We Are
Phat writes:
Is not the real evidence within ones own soul and heart and not based on historical, archeological, or psychological facts?
No.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Phat, posted 06-17-2015 2:51 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 78 of 451 (760163)
06-18-2015 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Phat
06-17-2015 2:56 PM


Re: As I see Christianity
Phat writes:
One mans idea of "trying to do your best" may not agree with another mans idea.
That is what the evidence shows.
Phat writes:
I believe that GOD will be the perfect judge but can WE agree on a consensus of what such a judge will be like?
I have no idea what that even means but from what you post it seems the perfect judge is the one that lets you off the hook.
Phat writes:
Will this judge himself need correction?
Who knows but all the evidence seems to show that yes, judges need review and correction.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Phat, posted 06-17-2015 2:56 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 06-20-2015 9:16 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Rocky.C
Member (Idle past 3008 days)
Posts: 32
Joined: 06-17-2015


Message 79 of 451 (760262)
06-19-2015 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
08-25-2004 10:41 AM


Re: As I see Christianity
Jar, I am new to this board. In fact, this reply to you is my first post. With that being said, I find it amusing that an individual who is less than a century old has the audacity to tell us what happened billions of years ago?
Also, it is not possible for someone (or anyone) to explain what it means to be a Christian when they do not understand who and what God is, or His purpose in creating Man.
Man's ultimate potential is mind-blowing; yet, the Holy Bible (in unambiguous wording) makes it clear why we were created, and what God expects from us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 08-25-2004 10:41 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by jar, posted 06-19-2015 10:50 AM Rocky.C has replied
 Message 90 by ringo, posted 06-20-2015 1:15 PM Rocky.C has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 80 of 451 (760271)
06-19-2015 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Rocky.C
06-19-2015 10:25 AM


Re: As I see Christianity
Rocky writes:
Jar, I am new to this board. In fact, this reply to you is my first post. With that being said, I find it amusing that an individual who is less than a century old has the audacity to tell us what happened billions of years ago?
Hi Rocky, welcome home. Pull up a stump and set a spell.
Pointing out what all the evidence actually shows does not take any audacity at all.
Rocky writes:
Also, it is not possible for someone (or anyone) to explain what it means to be a Christian when they do not understand who and what God is, or His purpose in creating Man.
Man's ultimate potential is mind-blowing; yet, the Holy Bible (in unambiguous wording) makes it clear why we were created, and what God expects from us.
The Holy Bible is so filled with contradictions, falsehoods, fantasy as well as information pointing to the various beliefs, laws and customs of a particular people in a particular era that nothing in it is unambiguous to those who honestly study it. One thing that is clear from the very beginning though is that the authors of the various Bible stories were as clueless about who and what God is as we are today. Genesis 1 and Genesis 2&3 are great examples of that, the former much newer story depicting a God character that is competent, who creates simply by act of will, that shows no hesitation and is overarching, but aloof, not connected in anyway directly with the creation. The God in the much older Genesis 2&3 stories is much different though; unsure, learning on the job, somewhat fumbling and bumbling but in direct involvement with the creation, creating by hand and using trial and error but also very human, showing doubt and fear but also love and concern and communion that is totally lacking in the Genesis 1 God.
What is pretty clear though is what we are supposed to do and that is to help others, to honestly evaluate our own behavior and acknowledge when we screw up, try to make amends and try not to make the same mistake in the future.
But as this thread has shown, the answer to what is a Christian is as open ended and varied as humanity itself. The only common denominator seems to be that the individual is a member of one of the thousands of Chapters that make up Club Christian.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Rocky.C, posted 06-19-2015 10:25 AM Rocky.C has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Rocky.C, posted 06-19-2015 12:09 PM jar has replied

  
Rocky.C
Member (Idle past 3008 days)
Posts: 32
Joined: 06-17-2015


Message 81 of 451 (760275)
06-19-2015 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by jar
06-19-2015 10:50 AM


Re: As I see Christianity
Let's get this straight right off the bat: there is no evidence to support the earth being billions of years old. If one chooses to believes this, they are free to do so, but understand that this is just an opinion--nothing more.
There can be no dispute in operational (observable and testable) science; it proves or disproves itself. But with historical science there is no means to achieve this.
It is impossible to prove that the earth is billions of years old. It can't be done. And, if it can't be demonstrated and provable it is simply voodoo science, and is no more than a belief.
I will most certainly address the other issues you raised, but it would be better to hash one issue at a time, especially since I work sixty hours a week.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by jar, posted 06-19-2015 10:50 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by MrHambre, posted 06-19-2015 1:20 PM Rocky.C has replied
 Message 83 by jar, posted 06-19-2015 6:29 PM Rocky.C has not replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1392 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 82 of 451 (760282)
06-19-2015 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Rocky.C
06-19-2015 12:09 PM


Seeing is believing
There can be no dispute in operational (observable and testable) science; it proves or disproves itself.
That's why we still believe the Sun orbits the Earth, right?
Whether we're talking about science in the lab or natural history, we're still talking about theories that arrange and interpret data. Geochronology and biostratigraphy aren't "voodoo," they depend on reasonable assumptions and consistent methodology the same way lab research does.
Welcome to EvC.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Rocky.C, posted 06-19-2015 12:09 PM Rocky.C has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Rocky.C, posted 06-20-2015 8:14 AM MrHambre has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 83 of 451 (760300)
06-19-2015 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Rocky.C
06-19-2015 12:09 PM


Re: As I see Christianity
Rocky writes:
Let's get this straight right off the bat: there is no evidence to support the earth being billions of years old. If one chooses to believes this, they are free to do so, but understand that this is just an opinion--nothing more.
I don't know who told you that but at best they are woefully ignorant. Of course there is overwhelming evidence that the earth is billions of years old and only the ignorant or dishonest dispute that fact.
Rocky writes:
There can be no dispute in operational (observable and testable) science; it proves or disproves itself. But with historical science there is no means to achieve this.
It is impossible to prove that the earth is billions of years old. It can't be done. And, if it can't be demonstrated and provable it is simply voodoo science, and is no more than a belief.
Historical science is another of the conman creations of the Christian Cult of Ignorance and of course what happened in the past most certainly is testable. Change leaves evidence.
Sorry but them's the facts.
AbE:
But the topic is What is Christianity and since the age of the Earth is totally irrelevant to the question of how old the earth is, it has no real place in this discussion.
AbE2:
There is one way that the age of the earth might be relevant is as an indicator of how difficult it is to identify what a Christian is. There are Chapters of Club Christian that try to sell the idea that the earth is not billions of years old and even Chapters of Club Christian that try to sell the idea that humans are some special creation and not just the result of billions of years or evolution.
Edited by jar, : see AbE. Hit wrong key.
Edited by jar, : see AbE2:

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Rocky.C, posted 06-19-2015 12:09 PM Rocky.C has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 06-19-2015 11:29 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 84 of 451 (760308)
06-19-2015 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by jar
06-19-2015 6:29 PM


Re: As I see Christianity
jar writes:
There are Chapters of Club Christian that try to sell the idea that the earth is not billions of years old and even Chapters of Club Christian that try to sell the idea that humans are some special creation and not just the result of billions of years or evolution.
It is a controversial issue discussing GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen. Many times, we humans (the only animal who also has a larger brain capable of empathy and verbal communication that can be preserved) argue about the nature of such a GOD. Some Christians from some chapters of this vast club of many denominations and sects of Christianity believe that Jesus was a special human in that He was also in the beginning. I should clarify. Was, Is, and Forever, AMEN.
Other Chapters of Club: Christianity affirm that while on earth at least Jesus was simply a human. No mention is made of Jesus BEFORE He came to earth---no matter whether He was born like the rest of us or whether --as legend and belief assert He was made man some other way.
You say that His life and example was more important than His death, burial, and resurrection. Granted it is a common belief among many chapters that Jesus was born of a virgin and rose(or was raised) from the dead.
Where you and I differ---or perhaps where our clubs differ---is that you claim that the death burial and resurrection is nothing special and that the Creator of all seen and unseen may do it for some or even all of us IF She so chooses.
Your brand emphasizes individual responsibility as the primary lesson taught.
My club emphasizes acceptance of grace by communion through the death burial and resurrection of this great teacher. I won't dismiss the beliefs of your club. Responsibility is an important character trait.
Death, burial and resurrection---indeed salvation itself---if such a term can be understood and IF such a GOD could ever be understood---is not some farce and joke, however. It makes successful responsibility possible. Otherwise, this species is, in my belief, doomed. We will NEVER understand ourselves, our collective and individual purpose, nor our charge by ignoring the great teacher. Perhaps, however we will also never understand His death, burial and resurrection until and unless we also understand and appreciate His life.
jar writes:
What is pretty clear though is what we are supposed to do and that is to help others, to honestly evaluate our own behavior and acknowledge when we screw up, try to make amends and try not to make the same mistake in the future.
Finally--- My Club would assert that thankfully He often makes amends for us. Imagine if you needed to make 90 years worth of amends and were pardoned. Your obligation was between you and Him. Perhaps by virtue of the fact that He erased your obligation much the way the Shrewd Manager did for others, You would be charged to go and do likewise. Paying it forward is what I believe they call it these days.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by jar, posted 06-19-2015 6:29 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by jar, posted 06-20-2015 8:54 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Rocky.C
Member (Idle past 3008 days)
Posts: 32
Joined: 06-17-2015


Message 85 of 451 (760319)
06-20-2015 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by MrHambre
06-19-2015 1:20 PM


Re: Seeing is believing
The Bible does not state that the sun orbits the earth--never even hints at the notion. Operational science (that which is observable and testable) would disprove this quite easily.
I am for science. Science is not my enemy.
Through geology we observe the layers of rocks, their size, and what bonds them together. We can also determine their composition and of what type they are. We can see this with our own eyes; we can experience it first-hand. This is "operational science." It is observable and verifiable. How these layers of rocks came about is "historical science," and it is disputable.
The same thing goes for paleontology and fossils. Everyone can agree with operational science, which is the fact that fossils exist. The differences in opinion (and, this is all anyone can have) is in the historical science.
Isn't it funny that with C14 dating we should (according to the experts) have no detectable C14 in fossils greater than 50,000 years in age. According to these same experts dinosaurs died out tens of millions of years ago; yet, dinosaurs have C14, and some have soft muscle tissue in their bones, with blood platelets and DNA. Observational science tells us that these animals are less than 50,000 years old.
I am not against anyone believing in evolution or in billions of years, but I am against teaching this as science, and in lying to young school kids.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by MrHambre, posted 06-19-2015 1:20 PM MrHambre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Phat, posted 06-20-2015 9:07 AM Rocky.C has replied
 Message 89 by nwr, posted 06-20-2015 11:59 AM Rocky.C has replied
 Message 94 by MrHambre, posted 06-20-2015 7:19 PM Rocky.C has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 86 of 451 (760322)
06-20-2015 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Phat
06-19-2015 11:29 PM


Re: As I see Christianity
Phat writes:
Where you and I differ---or perhaps where our clubs differ---is that you claim that the death burial and resurrection is nothing special and that the Creator of all seen and unseen may do it for some or even all of us IF She so chooses.
But that is a misrepresentation of what I say as you certainly should know Phat, and it is also not what the Bible says.
The Bible says that Jesus being raised from the dead is not special and I have provided you time and time again with the supporting evidence. Lazarus and son of the Shunammite woman and the son of the widow of Nain and the son of the Zarephath widow and the daughter of Jairus all were raised from the dead. Peter and Paul even raised folk from the dead and a whole herd of unspecified folk rose from the dead at the same time as Jesus. There is even some unnamed guy that rose from the dead when his body touched dem Elisha bones.
You do present quite a few examples though of just how hard it is to say what a Christian is, what a Christian believes, what it means to be a Christian other than the fact of membership in one of the thousands of Chapters of Club Christian.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 06-19-2015 11:29 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 87 of 451 (760323)
06-20-2015 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Rocky.C
06-20-2015 8:14 AM


Re: Seeing is believing
Rocky writes:
I am for science. Science is not my enemy.
Are the intelligent design "scientists"--in your opinion---any more insightful as to the nature of reality than the secular ones? (I refer to the beliefs of websites such as Ken Hams "Answers In Genesis")
Is understanding a special gift from our Creator given to a select group of people? Do believers have any more knowledge or wisdom than unbelievers (or non-believers)
In the context of Evolution versus Creationism is there even a consensus among Christians as to how the past history of this planet came about?
Edited by Phat, : added jabberwocky

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Rocky.C, posted 06-20-2015 8:14 AM Rocky.C has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Rocky.C, posted 06-20-2015 2:20 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 88 of 451 (760324)
06-20-2015 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by jar
06-18-2015 9:58 AM


Re: As I see Christianity
jar writes:
... from what you post it seems the perfect judge is the one that lets you off the hook.
My club believes that Jesus is GOD and that Jesus forgives us for a lot of things that we do on a daily basis. Granted---as you may have said before a time or two---we were given only the gift of the knowledge between good and evil and are expected to correct ourselves...using prayer as an acknowledgement of our sins and shortcomings. I would argue that GOD gives us the desire to admit we are wrong(through self awareness of our shortcomings)
but yes....you are correct in that I believe He lets me off the hook. He lets all of us off the proverbial hook if we but acknowledge Him for Who He Is.
Im not saying that my belief is written in stone---apart from believing that GOD is living and active and that Christians are in Communion with GOD.
Perhaps some place the responsibility for correction on themselves while others place it on GOD.

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 06-18-2015 9:58 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 89 of 451 (760339)
06-20-2015 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Rocky.C
06-20-2015 8:14 AM


Re: Seeing is believing
The Bible does not state that the sun orbits the earth--never even hints at the notion.
The Bible isn't a science textbook.
If you want to look at its science, then it is already clearly wrong in Genesis 1. It's best to recognize that it was never intended to be about science.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Rocky.C, posted 06-20-2015 8:14 AM Rocky.C has replied

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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 90 of 451 (760342)
06-20-2015 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Rocky.C
06-19-2015 10:25 AM


Re: As I see Christianity
Rocky.C. writes:
... I find it amusing that an individual who is less than a century old has the audacity to tell us what happened billions of years ago?
Also, it is not possible for someone (or anyone) to explain what it means to be a Christian when they do not understand who and what God is, or His purpose in creating Man.
I find it amusing that you (seem to) claim that you understand who and what God is, and His purpose in creating Man.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Rocky.C, posted 06-19-2015 10:25 AM Rocky.C has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Rocky.C, posted 06-20-2015 4:40 PM ringo has replied

  
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