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Author Topic:   What is Christianity?
Rocky.C
Member (Idle past 3008 days)
Posts: 32
Joined: 06-17-2015


Message 91 of 451 (760344)
06-20-2015 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Phat
06-20-2015 9:07 AM


Re: Seeing is believing
I don't know very much about intelligent design scientists and their beliefs. I have only listened to Mr. Ham once or twice and to Creation.com a couple of times. Also, I do not know what the consensus is.
I will be the first to tell you that I am conflicted about the age of the earth. I firmly believe that the account in Genesis occurred 6000 years ago. I firmly believe that any and all humans and animals were created at that time, and none before. The Bible plainly states that death came through Adam. This issue is settled in my mind.
However, I wonder if there could be some years between Genesis 1 and 2, and I'll tell you why I wonder about this.
Verse 1 tells us that in the beginning God created everything in the universe. Verse 2 is a little more ambiguous. Here it is: "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep..."
The word was is from the Hebrew 'kayah,' and could also be interpreted (and probably should be) as "came to be" or "became."
The word w/o form ('tohuw' #8414 Strong's Concordance) is best interpreted as waste, or desolation. Void (#922 Strong) refers to "an undistinguishable ruin." Neither word should refer to a planet in it originally created condition.
Psalms 104:30 "Thou sendest forth thou spirit, they are created: and thou renewest (Chadash # 2318 "to be new" or "rebuild")the face of the earth.
The war between Michael and his angels and Lucifer and his minion (Isa 14:12... & Rev 12:7) had destroyed a great deal of the solar system, and perhaps much more than this. Just take a look at other moons and planets in out SS than have not been renewed. There is much, much, more than this, but this is a short discussion board.
One more thing: The creation account in Genesis (at least in my opinion) is all about readying earth for the habitation of man. It should have the perspective of one standing on the face of the earth and not in space. When God first said let there be light He was simply removing all the debris from earth's atmosphere allowing sunlight to penetrate, but the light was merely translucent. Later He created a firmament (our atmosphere--sky), which removed all water vapor from the atmosphere and the stars, moon, and sunlight were clearly visible.

This message is a reply to:
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Rocky.C
Member (Idle past 3008 days)
Posts: 32
Joined: 06-17-2015


Message 92 of 451 (760346)
06-20-2015 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by nwr
06-20-2015 11:59 AM


Re: Seeing is believing
***A good deal can be learned about science from the Bible. In many instances it has been far ahead of the secular world.
Science used to teach that the earth was flat and that people could walk off the edges. Isaiah 40:22 (written around 700 BC) stated as a matter-of-fact that the world is a circle. The word "circle" is from the Hebrew word Chuwg (#2329 Strong), it refers to the earth as a sphere.
The dimensions for Noah's Ark, which has a design ratio of 30x5x3, was shown by Dr. S. W. Hong (an atheist), of the Korean Institute of Ocean Engineering, to have the highest degree of seaworthiness. Modern cargo ships are built with similar ratios. This design ratio offers optimum overturn stability; structural integrity; and greater lengthwise pitch stability in heavy seas.
God told the Israelites to bury their refuse, especially their fecal matter. In 1700 Europe citizens were tossing their garbage into the street, which ran rampant with diseases.
Moses and the Israelites were aware that our life is in our blood. Science was still blood-letting in the 1800's. George Washington probably died from this practice.
In the mid 1800's in England a large number of birth mothers were dying. It was found that this number could be lowered significantly when doctors washed their hands in running water after each birth. They should have read Leviticus.
Bible states that God created life according to "kinds." It is still true that animals can only recreate after their own "kind."
There are countless other examples in the Bible. If you wish to see more, let me know.

This message is a reply to:
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Rocky.C
Member (Idle past 3008 days)
Posts: 32
Joined: 06-17-2015


Message 93 of 451 (760348)
06-20-2015 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by ringo
06-20-2015 1:15 PM


Re: As I see Christianity
Anyone who possess the ability to read should be capable of understanding who God is and His purpose in creating man. He tells us this numerous time. It's not a mystery.
Who would want to follow a God they could not relate to?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by ringo, posted 06-20-2015 1:15 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 94 of 451 (760364)
06-20-2015 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Rocky.C
06-20-2015 8:14 AM


Re: Seeing is believing
Rocky.C writes:
The Bible does not state that the sun orbits the earth--never even hints at the notion. Operational science (that which is observable and testable) would disprove this quite easily.
I am for science. Science is not my enemy.
How would observations such as the Sun appearing to move across the sky disprove quite easily the notion that the Sun orbits the Earth?
You're making a distinction between "observational" and "historical" science that doesn't exist. Any scientific theory is a framework for interpreting and understanding data, regardless of the type of data.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Rocky.C, posted 06-20-2015 8:14 AM Rocky.C has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Rocky.C, posted 06-21-2015 10:53 AM MrHambre has replied

  
Rocky.C
Member (Idle past 3008 days)
Posts: 32
Joined: 06-17-2015


Message 95 of 451 (760389)
06-21-2015 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by MrHambre
06-20-2015 7:19 PM


Re: Seeing is believing
Heliocentrism has been observed for centuries. Aristarchus was aware of this in the 3rd century BC. However, he was silenced for fear of being charged with impiety.
False religious men/systems , especially the Catholic Church, have used fear and intimidation to silence sun-centered observers for years. Copernicus was aware of this in the 1500's, and he based his theory on observations made centuries earlier, but the great false church silenced him.
Today, even without a telescope (but much better with), we can make these same observations. It might take an entire year to be certain, but we can prove heliocentrism to ourselves.
The universal church had men put to death for going against their dogma. For example, some were bound and one of their legs laid on an open fire until that individual recanted. If the individual would not recant his leg would be burnt to a pitiful nub. Then they would go to the other leg. There are many other examples.
You and other evolutionists remind me very much of these false religious leaders, in that you want to suppress knowledge (observable science) because it conflicts with your biased views.
You control our school and governmental systems. Professors and teachers who do not support your beliefs are almost always released or mocked, unless they learn to keep their mouths shut. All government grants go to evolutionists; yet, you are still not satisfied.
Evolutionists say they want to use "all data" when forming theories and hypotheses, but they are terrified of operation science.
You should be ashamed of yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by MrHambre, posted 06-20-2015 7:19 PM MrHambre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 06-21-2015 11:12 AM Rocky.C has replied
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 Message 101 by NoNukes, posted 06-21-2015 7:06 PM Rocky.C has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 96 of 451 (760392)
06-21-2015 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Rocky.C
06-21-2015 10:53 AM


still trying to define what Christianity is.
Of course almost all of the major Christian churches understand that evolution is a fact, that the Theory of Evolution is the only explanation so far for life as we see it and that the earth is billions of years old.
The Roman Catholic church is and always has been a Christian church.
The Protestants certainly have been a cruel as the Roman Catholics and may well have been far more successful at genocide.
Which just reenforces the difficulty of defining what a Christian is or what a Christian should do.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Rocky.C, posted 06-21-2015 10:53 AM Rocky.C has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 129 by Rocky.C, posted 06-22-2015 4:26 PM jar has replied
 Message 151 by Rocky.C, posted 06-23-2015 11:16 AM jar has replied
 Message 161 by Rocky.C, posted 06-24-2015 7:39 AM jar has replied
 Message 164 by Rocky.C, posted 06-24-2015 10:23 AM jar has replied
 Message 167 by Rocky.C, posted 06-24-2015 1:17 PM jar has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 97 of 451 (760404)
06-21-2015 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Rocky.C
06-20-2015 4:40 PM


Re: As I see Christianity
Rocky.C. writes:
Anyone who possess the ability to read should be capable of understanding who God is and His purpose in creating man.
Are you aware that Muslims can read? Why do different religions and even different denominations have such different "understanding" of God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Rocky.C, posted 06-20-2015 4:40 PM Rocky.C has not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 98 of 451 (760409)
06-21-2015 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Rocky.C
06-21-2015 10:53 AM


True Scotsmen
Rocky.C writes:
False religious men/systems , especially the Catholic Church
Since you call around 2/3 of all self-identified Christians as not Christians, would you care to enlighten us as to which branches of Christianity are made up of true Christians?

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
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MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 99 of 451 (760417)
06-21-2015 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Rocky.C
06-21-2015 10:53 AM


Re: Seeing is believing
Today, even without a telescope (but much better with), we can make these same observations. It might take an entire year to be certain, but we can prove heliocentrism to ourselves.
That's not true in the least. You're pretending that data and observations arrange and interpret themselves, which is fantasy. We need a unifying theory to explain observations, whether we're talking about data recorded by astronomers, paleontologists, or molecular biologists. There's no such thing as theory-free science, or self-validating "operation science."
What you're really talking about is the way we as a culture relate to scientific knowledge. Certainly the matter of Darwinian evolution is one that we relate to on a lot of different levels: scientific, social, psychological, and cultural. If you want to study further the ways that Darwinism has been interpreted and misinterpreted throughout the life of the idea, you should read Ever Since Darwin by Stephen Jay Gould.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 100 of 451 (760418)
06-21-2015 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Rocky.C
06-20-2015 4:40 PM


Re: As I see Christianity
Rocky writes:
Who would want to follow a God they could not relate to?
Which is why, as the Bible shows, the authors created Gods in their own image that they could relate to.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Rocky.C, posted 06-20-2015 4:40 PM Rocky.C has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 101 of 451 (760425)
06-21-2015 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Rocky.C
06-21-2015 10:53 AM


Re: Seeing is believing
False religious men/systems , especially the Catholic Church, have used fear and intimidation to silence sun-centered observers for years. Copernicus was aware of this in the 1500's, and he based his theory on observations made centuries earlier, but the great false church silenced him.
Copernicus wasn't actually threatened by the Church. He published his work not long before his time of death. The Catholic Church actually had no idea that Copernicus was even working on the topic.
Copernicus had some fear of the Church, but his work actually preceded the Church's policy that Galileo was punished with.
Today, even without a telescope (but much better with), we can make these same observations. It might take an entire year to be certain, but we can prove heliocentrism to ourselves.
Actually you cannot distinguish between the Ptolemy system and the Copernican system via observation. Both of those systems fail by about the same amount in making predictions of the location of heavenly bodies. I think that leaves your point about observable science right in the crapper.
Once we had Newton's theory of gravitation, it became possible to make a meaningful distinction between a system with the planets orbiting the sun and other systems. But that's not just observational science, is it?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

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Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 102 of 451 (760426)
06-21-2015 7:42 PM


Maybe stick to things Christ?
Dare I opine that a Christian is one who follows the teachings and actions of Christ?
I don't think that Christ was concerned about the Earth's age, the nature of geology, and the general state of the Earth's physical makeup.
It seems to me, that all messages should have some obvious connection to considerations of Christ.
THIS IS AN OFFICIAL WARNING, AND I AM NOW FREE TO LAY SOME HURT ON THOSE THAT WANDER AWAY FROM THE TOPIC THEME. OSLT.
Adminnemooseus

Or something like that.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 103 of 451 (760430)
06-21-2015 8:01 PM


So yet another definition tossed out for consideration
BIGmoose writes:
Dare I opine that a Christian is one who follows the teachings and actions of Christ?
So an Admin jumps into the discussion but without helping much.
Which teachings of Christ?
Were any of Jesus teachings related to a religion?
Or is Christianity more the product of the early salesmen and writers?
So it looks like we still don't have a definition beyond "Someone who is a member of one of the Chapters claiming to be in Club Christian.
AbE:
A great example of why following the teachings and actions of Christ can be a problem can be seen in the evolution of "The Great Commission" (see The evolution of the Great Commission over time. ). The "Great Commission" is what the stories says Jesus told the disciples to do and yet it grew and evolved and changed over time as the authors of the different stories modified it to fit their narrative and epistle.
The same pattern can be seen in the iterations of Paul's vision.
Edited by jar, : see AbE:
Edited by jar, : fix link

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Phat, posted 06-22-2015 11:24 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 104 of 451 (760458)
06-22-2015 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by jar
06-21-2015 8:01 PM


Re: So yet another definition tossed out for consideration
jar writes:
So an Admin jumps into the discussion but without helping much.
I think that Admin simply wants to differentiate between being a Christian and being a Christian who also has a basic belief in creationism versus evolution/critical science. Seeing as how the topic in this thread is the former, I see Moose's point.
jar writes:
Which teachings of Christ?
Strictly speaking, (even for a literalist) the teachings of christ are limited to the Gospels. Red Letters for some. The rest of the Bible is either written through help of the Holy Spirit or at worst through ulterior motives of latter day franchise planners. I opt more towards the former.
jar writes:
Were any of Jesus teachings related to a religion?
Good question. Jesus was Jewish, but I feel that His message transcended Judaism...either in that time or currently.
Or is Christianity more the product of the early salesmen and writers?
We are all products of our culture, our upbringing, and our personal choice and intention.
You once brought up the observation that I preferred fantasy over reality. This insinuation could be true of much of the culture-at-large.
Then again, any of us could be wrong. What does YOUR Chapter teach?
AbE:
jar writes:
A great example of why following the teachings and actions of Christ can be a problem can be seen in the evolution of "The Great Commission" (see The evolution of the Great Commission over time. ). The "Great Commission" is what the stories says Jesus told the disciples to do and yet it grew and evolved and changed over time as the authors of the different stories modified it to fit their narrative and epistle.
I also recommend readers checking out The evolution of the Great Commission over time.. You will see the same arguments over there. At EvC, some of us argue and debate the same stuff ten years running....
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 105 of 451 (760461)
06-22-2015 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Phat
06-22-2015 11:24 AM


Re: So yet another definition tossed out for consideration
Phat writes:
Strictly speaking, (even for a literalist) the teachings of christ are limited to the Gospels. Red Letters for some. The rest of the Bible is either written through help of the Holy Spirit or at worst through ulterior motives of latter day franchise planners. I opt more towards the former.
Again, as I pointed out, that tells us nothing about what those teachings were. Each Gospel presents a different version tailored to fit the desires of the author.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Phat, posted 06-22-2015 11:24 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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