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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 3616 of 5179 (760403)
06-21-2015 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 3611 by Faith
06-21-2015 1:39 PM


Re: 9 dead in SC
They all were there to attend a fucking Bible study, Faith. Not a drug dealer's convention or a biker get-together in Waco. Why in hell should anyone ever think they would need a sidearm for II Colossians?
Edited by Coragyps, : No reason given.

"The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails." H L Mencken

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3611 by Faith, posted 06-21-2015 1:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3650 by Faith, posted 06-21-2015 11:16 PM Coragyps has replied

Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 3617 of 5179 (760405)
06-21-2015 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 3612 by anglagard
06-21-2015 1:46 PM


Re: 9 dead in SC
Lebanon and Sweet Home, Oregon are sure looking like a good place to relocate for an early retirement.
I live abot 10 miles from Lebanon and 25 from Sweet Home. They are both pretty redneck. Lots of gun nuts and general dimwits, and also here in Albany. Corvallis and Eugene/Springfield are much more progressive, but have their share of wackjobs too.
I grew up in Bend and when I moved to Albany years ago I was amazed at the clear cultural differences. I worked in the analytical lab of a rare metal refinery and was shocked at the level of racial bigotry that was expressed there. There were no blacks working there then and the things I heard people say would happen if any came to work there shocked me. When a few African-Americans were eventually integrated into the workforce there were no problems and they were treated like everyone else.
In general Oregon is liberal, but a lot of Oregonians are in love with their guns.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3612 by anglagard, posted 06-21-2015 1:46 PM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3625 by anglagard, posted 06-21-2015 6:03 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 3618 of 5179 (760406)
06-21-2015 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 3608 by Percy
06-21-2015 12:40 PM


Re: 9 dead in SC
Percy writes:
It wouldn't surprise me if they proposed that school and church outings require a designated shooter for defense.
Every playground could have a tree stand.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3608 by Percy, posted 06-21-2015 12:40 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 3619 of 5179 (760411)
06-21-2015 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 3601 by Faith
06-21-2015 9:23 AM


Re: 9 dead in SC
So instead of answering my questions you instead decide to go on a evidence free, racist rant. Classic.
Please show how I have expressed hate of any kind, never mind virulent hate.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3601 by Faith, posted 06-21-2015 9:23 AM Faith has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 3620 of 5179 (760413)
06-21-2015 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 3611 by Faith
06-21-2015 1:39 PM


Re: 9 dead in SC
Isn't it obvious that if just one person in the Bible Study had a gun many would not have died?
No. It is not.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3611 by Faith, posted 06-21-2015 1:39 PM Faith has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 3621 of 5179 (760414)
06-21-2015 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 3609 by Coragyps
06-21-2015 1:27 PM


Re: 9 dead in SC
I have read that Dylann Roof had a pending felony charge and would not have been able to purchase a gun legally. In SC no background checks are necessary for private gun transactions.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...ed-dylann-roof-to-get-a-gun

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3609 by Coragyps, posted 06-21-2015 1:27 PM Coragyps has not replied

Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(6)
Message 3622 of 5179 (760415)
06-21-2015 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 3611 by Faith
06-21-2015 1:39 PM


Re: 9 dead in SC
Faith writes:
Isn't it obvious that if just one person in the Bible Study had a gun many would not have died?
Isn't it obvious that if your god really existed she would stop this shit from happening (and smite you on the back of the head for spouting such nonsense)?

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3611 by Faith, posted 06-21-2015 1:39 PM Faith has not replied

MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 3623 of 5179 (760419)
06-21-2015 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 3599 by Faith
06-21-2015 8:42 AM


Re: 9 dead in SC
Oh right, the liberal explanation of violence (minority violence anyway, if it's white violence it's racist or some such) and every other social ill: poverty, oppression, social inequities etc.
And your explanation is what? Sin? The personal shortcomings of the nonwhites causing the violence? Why, that's just so much more persuasive.
Marx's analysis is still taken seriously. I guess that was inevitable.
I'm not a Marxist myself, but I see a lot of value in analyzing the social context of these issues. The way we define social problems is tied into how we relate to power dynamics and the narratives we find meaningful in explaining the human condition.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3599 by Faith, posted 06-21-2015 8:42 AM Faith has not replied

vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(6)
Message 3624 of 5179 (760421)
06-21-2015 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 3611 by Faith
06-21-2015 1:39 PM


Re: 9 dead in SC
Isn't it obvious that if just one person in the Bible Study had a gun many would not have died?
You're not doing the math.
For your scenario to work, EVERY Bible Study group in the country would have to have someone carrying a gun, because you don't know which Bible Study group the next little shit will target.
The evidence that people here have been pointing to shows that, over time, the number of deaths from accidental shootings, misunderstandings and the like, when multiplied by the meetings of every single Bible Study group in the country, over the period of time it has taken for there to be any fatal attack on a Bible Study group, will very likely indeed lead to a number of deaths significantly in excess of the 9 recently murdered in SC.
(And this is quite apart from the fact that untrained gun owners don't actually often get off even one shot, when confronted by a genuine crisis - but let's leave that to one side).
The point is that whilst it seems to make sense that you can save lives in one instance by increasing the amount of guns in the situation, when you multiply out that increase across the country, you actually get the opposite effect, and have more people die accidentally than you would save in any isolated case.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3611 by Faith, posted 06-21-2015 1:39 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
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anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


(4)
Message 3625 of 5179 (760422)
06-21-2015 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 3617 by Tanypteryx
06-21-2015 2:17 PM


Re: 9 dead in SC
Tanypteryx writes:
I live abot 10 miles from Lebanon and 25 from Sweet Home. They are both pretty redneck. Lots of gun nuts and general dimwits, and also here in Albany. Corvallis and Eugene/Springfield are much more progressive, but have their share of wackjobs too.
My goal is to obtain a 1 bath 2 bedroom house with around half an acre under 150k as close to Eugene or Corvallis as possible. Preliminary research indicates the most likely properties are in Lebanon or Sweet Home. Eugene has University of and Corvallis has a doctoral program in history of science, so the closer the better. Naturally I require high speed internet and room for tinkering and horticultural adventures.
Every city has whackjobs, and my friends and relatives even call me a nut-magnet because I listen to their stories. Every time I go to a bar, it seems the biggest looney in the place immediately makes a beeline for me, perhaps they find I am a kindred spirit.
Tanypteryx writes:
I grew up in Bend and when I moved to Albany years ago I was amazed at the clear cultural differences. I worked in the analytical lab of a rare metal refinery and was shocked at the level of racial bigotry that was expressed there. There were no blacks working there then and the things I heard people say would happen if any came to work there shocked me. When a few African-Americans were eventually integrated into the workforce there were no problems and they were treated like everyone else.
I'm not saying you can't pay me to live on the wrong side of the Cascades, I'm just saying the price is steep.
Tanypteryx writes:
In general Oregon is liberal, but a lot of Oregonians are in love with their guns.
Guns in and of themselves don't bother me, I have a rifle and two handguns in the house right now, I just don't know exactly where the handguns are because I forgot where I hid them from my late wife when she was talking shit on Prozac.
I grew up with guns, my half-brother at one time owned over 100 until the first wife cleaned him out in the divorce. My father shot playing cards in half at 10 to 15 feet edgewise with handguns, a cousin not only vouching for that fact but also having kept several of the cards in question.
Guns don't bother me, psychotics, criminals, sociopaths, racists, misogynists, religious fanatics, right-wing militia and so on with guns bothers me a lot.
To hell with the NRA, deep background checks for all.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3617 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-21-2015 2:17 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3631 by marc9000, posted 06-21-2015 8:01 PM anglagard has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 3626 of 5179 (760423)
06-21-2015 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 3608 by Percy
06-21-2015 12:40 PM


Re: 9 dead in SC
By what mechanism does your 'solution' reduce the frequency of events like this?
The fellow wasn't legally qualified to own a gun and brought it into a place where guns are banned.
About the only thing that could have been done to prevent Roof from doing what he did (with a gun at least) would be a time machine that allowed us to go back and prevent the invention of the gun.
When people are already getting guns they aren't supposed to have and bringing them where they aren't supposed to bring them, what makes you think laws keeping people from getting guns and restricting where they can bring them will have any impact on the frequency of events such as this?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3608 by Percy, posted 06-21-2015 12:40 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2373 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 3627 of 5179 (760424)
06-21-2015 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 3613 by Percy
06-21-2015 1:50 PM


Re: 9 dead in SC
Percy writes:
What is clear is that any guns owned by members of the congregation were more likely to be used against themselves, family members or friends than for defense.
While the data for that may exist Percy, I have yet to see it. Do you have it?
What I have seen is that a gun IS more likely to kill an associated family member (by accident, homicide or suicide) than to kill an intruder/attacker. That in no way makes your statement true however as guns are used for defense with an extremely likely outcome being the trigger is never pulled.
JB

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3613 by Percy, posted 06-21-2015 1:50 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3635 by Percy, posted 06-21-2015 8:43 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied

marc9000
Member
Posts: 1509
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.4


(1)
Message 3628 of 5179 (760427)
06-21-2015 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 3614 by Percy
06-21-2015 1:56 PM


Re: 9 dead in SC
By government do you mean police, military or both?
Any, or all, of government possession of guns that are not included in gun control laws.
I'm in favor of reducing gun prevalence among the police as circumstances warrant, the military no.
"As circumstances warrant", I assume this means the different circumstances after more gun control laws are passed for the general public. But that's not really important, since you made the blanket statement "too many guns", earlier, I was wondering if you trust different segments of the population with guns more than others, and you obviously do. I DON'T.
I'm not a gun nut, haven't fired one in years, so in a small way, my life isn't affected by gun control. But what gun control advocates don't seem to think about is the fact that it's not possible for an individual wack-job, or a citizen group of wack-jobs, to issue orders that cause massive gun carnage. It IS possible for government wack-jobs (including the military, which you trust) to issue orders that cause massive gun carnage. History is full of examples.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3614 by Percy, posted 06-21-2015 1:56 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3630 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-21-2015 7:57 PM marc9000 has not replied
 Message 3636 by anglagard, posted 06-21-2015 8:50 PM marc9000 has replied
 Message 3648 by anglagard, posted 06-21-2015 10:16 PM marc9000 has not replied

marc9000
Member
Posts: 1509
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 3629 of 5179 (760428)
06-21-2015 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 3624 by vimesey
06-21-2015 5:56 PM


Re: 9 dead in SC
The point is that whilst it seems to make sense that you can save lives in one instance by increasing the amount of guns in the situation, when you multiply out that increase across the country, you actually get the opposite effect, and have more people die accidentally than you would save in any isolated case.
You don't get the opposite effect in Switzerland.
quote:
SWITZERLAND ISSUES EVERY HOUSEHOLD A GUN!
SWITZERLAND’S GOVERNMENT TRAINS EVERY ADULT THEY ISSUE A RIFLE.
SWITZERLAND HAS THE LOWEST GUN RELATED CRIME RATE OF ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!!
Gun Grab World History — Enablement of Tyranny & Genocide - Decrypted Matrix
I can't find any evidence of an unusual number of accidental gun deaths there either.
quote:
The majority of Swiss voters appear to agree that gun control is not the way forward. In February 2011, nearly 57 percent of them voted against storing military-issued guns in armories rather than at home. The reason? Suter says they saw it as undermining trust in Swiss soldiers.
What's Worked, And What Hasn't, In Gun-Loving Switzerland : NPR

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3624 by vimesey, posted 06-21-2015 5:56 PM vimesey has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3632 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-21-2015 8:20 PM marc9000 has replied
 Message 3639 by Theodoric, posted 06-21-2015 9:11 PM marc9000 has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 3630 of 5179 (760429)
06-21-2015 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 3628 by marc9000
06-21-2015 7:43 PM


Re: 9 dead in SC
I was wondering if you trust different segments of the population with guns more than others, and you obviously do.
It's always seemed to me that the people who aren't homicidal lunatics are somewhat more trustworthy than the people who are. What do you think?
But what gun control advocates don't seem to think about is the fact that it's not possible for an individual wack-job, or a citizen group of wack-jobs, to issue orders that cause massive gun carnage.
Wouldn't that depend on how many of them there are?
It IS possible for government wack-jobs (including the military, which you trust) to issue orders that cause massive gun carnage.
If the military are, as you claim, "whackjobs", then at least you should grant that apparently they're not the sort of whackjobs that shoot up Bible study groups.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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