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Author Topic:   The Power/Reality Of Demons And Supernatural Evil.
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 64 days)
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 121 of 258 (75953)
12-31-2003 1:32 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Stephen ben Yeshua
12-30-2003 7:29 PM


Re: Demons and epistemology
Stephen ben Yeshua writes:

quote:
People before Newton didn't need any law of gravity to keep from jumping off cliffs. I don't live in blatant disregard for what the law explains, just how science at this point in history is explaining it.

This is a complete misunderstanding of how science progresses.

Paradigm shifts do not change past observations. The shift from a Newtonian universe to an Einsteinian one didn't change a single thing about rocks falling from cliffs. Everything about our understanding of gravity could change tomorrow, but a ball will still fall down to the ground when I let it go.

Science advances by making better and more accurate descriptions of observable phenomena. Einsteinian mechanics supplanted Newtonian because it explained not only things that Newtonian physics got wrong but also by explaining everything that Newtonian physics got right. You cannot have a revolution and expect to ignore all the evidence that came before.

As I said before, Newtonian physics is wrong in every single case, but Einsteinian physics explains why we thought Newtonian physics was right: The instrumentation we had available at the time was primitive enough that we couldn't physically detect the discrepancy. You need atomic clocks and jet airplanes which, sad to say, didn't exist in the 17th century.

The short answer, with regard to mechanics at least, is that Newton calculated that F = dp/dt and, based upon the best observations available at the time, reduced that in a linear fashion to F = ma. It was only later that we found out that the universe isn't linear but relative and thus, we have to go back to F = dp/dt.


Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 12-30-2003 7:29 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 12-31-2003 3:37 PM Rrhain has not yet responded

    
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 64 days)
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 122 of 258 (75954)
12-31-2003 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Stephen ben Yeshua
12-30-2003 3:18 PM


Re: Demons and epistemology
Stephen ben Yeshua writes:

quote:
Yes, I was a professional scientist, and so good at it that I got so far ahead of my times, I had to stop, to let everyone catch up.

Oh, please.

Now I know you're lying.

Perhaps you could give us some references of the articles you've published?


Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 12-30-2003 3:18 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Minnemooseus, posted 12-31-2003 1:53 AM Rrhain has not yet responded
 Message 126 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 12-31-2003 3:00 PM Rrhain has responded

    
sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 123 of 258 (75957)
12-31-2003 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Rrhain
12-31-2003 1:20 AM


Re: Demons and epistemology
Rrhain

Since they are for all practical purposes negligible then they are still valid for normal speeds and conditions. You are of course correct in principle.Thank you for setting that straight. We must also have it noted to Stephan that we did not throw out Newton with Einstein's discoveries.

I must point out that there is an everyday use in GPS systems that we use commonly enough these days that is dependent upon Einsteins theories.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Rrhain, posted 12-31-2003 1:20 AM Rrhain has not yet responded

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3730
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 124 of 258 (75958)
12-31-2003 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Rrhain
12-31-2003 1:33 AM


I can't resist
Article by Stephen Fretwell, about 3/4 of the way down the page.

http://www.sunflower.com/~homebrew/sept00.html

Being a home brewer has to be considered a plus, as far as any character evaluation goes .

He's also a Vitamin C fan (another Google found link).

Now, back to the real topic, already in progress.

Bad Moose - Go to bed without having your beer


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Rrhain, posted 12-31-2003 1:33 AM Rrhain has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 12-31-2003 3:41 PM Minnemooseus has not yet responded

    
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 4064 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 125 of 258 (75975)
12-31-2003 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Stephen ben Yeshua
12-30-2003 3:18 PM


I'm interested in your papers - ecology and conservation are my fields. You stated,

My last major one I am hopeful will win me long-term historical recognition, as a major contributor to the discovery of cascade effects, and food-chain dynamics, as the central theory of ecology.

Cascade effects, and the term trophic cascade I used in my previous post, were described by Jared Diamond in two papers in 1984:

Daimond, JM, 1984a "Historic extinctions: a Rosetta Stone for understanding prehistoric extinctions" in "Quaternary Extinctions" P.Martin and R.Klein, eds, ppg: 824-862 Uni Arizona Press (a great book! Highly recommended)

Diamond, JM, 1984b "'Normal' extinctions of isolated populations" in "Extinctions" MH Nitecki, ed ppg: 191-246 Uni Chicago Press

Diamond 1984a is probably the defining paper on the idea. That book is where I got my Hibiscadelphus example. Although there have been a number of scientists who have contributed substantially to our understanding of the effect (see, for instance, Quinn JF, Harrison SP, 1988 "Effects of habitat fragmentation and isolation on species richness: evidence from biogeographic patterns" Oecologia, 75:132-140), a lot of the framework Diamond used was based on John Terborgh's work on Barro Colorado (where I got my other example). See especially Terborgh, J, 1974 "Preservation of natural diversity: The problem of extinction-prone species" BioScience 24:715-722, which discusses the role of rarity among other things that lead to extinction in small populations.

An even more extensive treatment of the cascade effect can be found in "Tropical Forest Remnants: Ecology, Management, and Conservation of Fragmented Communities" WF Laurance and RO Bierregaard, Jr., eds
1997, Uni Chicago Press - a must-read for any ecologist.

I'd be very interested in reading your paper if it's available. Could you give a citation?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 12-30-2003 3:18 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 12-31-2003 4:09 PM Quetzal has responded
 Message 132 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 12-31-2003 4:13 PM Quetzal has not yet responded

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 126 of 258 (76038)
12-31-2003 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Rrhain
12-31-2003 1:33 AM


Re: Demons and epistemology
Rrhain,
I gave in message 7, to edge, under "the best scientific method" "Is is science?" the best answer to this question I can offer right now. But the searches should justify my claim to be a trustworthy authority on the matter.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Rrhain, posted 12-31-2003 1:33 AM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Rrhain, posted 01-01-2004 5:42 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has responded

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 127 of 258 (76042)
12-31-2003 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Rrhain
12-31-2003 1:14 AM


Re: Demons and epistemology
Rrhain,

As a hypothetico-deductive scientist, I am conscious of the difficulties explaining anything to a dogmatist like yourself. The former give all ideas plausibilities ranging from (but not including) zero up to (but not including )one. The latter give only the plausibilities zero or one. I can asymptotically approach your way of thinking, but you cannot imagine what I think. That's why you respond to my posts with so many non-sequiturs, and assign to me statements that I never made.

For example, I said that ad hoc explanations are weaker than predictions verified, in assessing the plausibility of an idea. Clearly, if Macdougal's experiments had found only exactly a 21 gram increase, in every trial, the idea that the soul weighs about 21 grams would now be more plausible than it is. But, he got some increases that confirmed, and some that indicated that there was more than one entity present. Now, if he had done a better job with the orthodox theology hypothesis, where our idea of souls might come from, he would have examined each of his patients for demonic possession before his experiment, and predicted that those who came in praising God gloriously might have manifested a heavy soul, those who were praising God shyly, a lighter soul, and those who appeared demon possessed, several entities. If I were to replicate this study, that's part of what I would change. (Recall paintings of Michael the Angel weighing souls, as they depart to heaven-that artist would have told you that God inspired his painting, suggesting that souls might have different weights, depending on how holy they were.)

But, MacDougal didn't do this, so now what? It's weak, but we turn to ad hoc revisions of our hypothesis so the next time around is better. That we can come up with a reasonable one does help the plausibility of the revised hypothesis (bodies have weighty souls, to bodies have weighty souls and possibly weighty demons possessing them.) Note that, now that we are thinking this way, we wonder what would we get if we weighed the pigs that Yeshua sent the demons into? Should we be totally surprized to find some animals experiencing a weight loss at death? And, if we were to weigh fetuses as they were killed in abortions, would we be able to tell when they acquired souls? Could not pro-choicers justify their agenda by showing that newborns were soul-less? Or protect themselves from making a terrible mistake, by discovering that fetuses got souls in their first trimester? What if we did the hypothermal thing, getting souls out of the bodies of some enquiring compassionate person in the room in which an abortion was being carried out. Would they be able to detect any soul leaving the fetus as it died?

See how much fun it is, being hypothetico-deductive?

Anyway, ad hoc is weak, to be used as a last resort. But it not illogical. It is a part of the Lakatosian research programme.

Stephen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Rrhain, posted 12-31-2003 1:14 AM Rrhain has not yet responded

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 128 of 258 (76043)
12-31-2003 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Rrhain
12-31-2003 1:32 AM


Re: Demons and epistemology
Rrhain,

I'm not sure how to respond to this. I say something, you say I completely misunderstand the subject, then you say pretty much what I said.

Another conflict between dogmatism and HD science?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Rrhain, posted 12-31-2003 1:32 AM Rrhain has not yet responded

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 129 of 258 (76045)
12-31-2003 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Minnemooseus
12-31-2003 1:53 AM


Re: I can't resist. Nor can I
And clearly, my self-aggrandizing comment, unsuccessfully light-hearted, stemmed from drinking one too many of those beers! But thanks for the encouragement.

If you drink a lot of beer, you need the vitamin C!

Steve


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Minnemooseus, posted 12-31-2003 1:53 AM Minnemooseus has not yet responded

  
Prozacman
Inactive Member


Message 130 of 258 (76052)
12-31-2003 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
11-22-2003 9:15 PM


Sorry Buz, I'm a 'doubting Thomas' on stuff like this, and I'm also a bit late in responding anyway. First, I don't give great credence to Fox-News on anything. While there may be some truth to the reporting they give, to me it is highly dramatized, with an overly positive bias; almost a good comparison with the former 1970's TV series, "In search of..." with Leonard Nimoy. I think that if we are to believe this story, then we will also have to believe in your idea of the devil & his demons taking posession of people who are not christians. After all, it is part of (some) christian belief that they cannot be posessed by demons because their "bodies are the temple of the Holy-Spirit". However, you may not believe this. Second, this is heresay because the "source" in the story is only a witness, not the doctors, or the 66year old f__t. Thirdly, How can you trust the doctors who may be demon-posessed themselves, or did they get their degrees from the 'Magic Hindu College of the 30,000 gods' which has demon posessed teachers?

I think the 66year old f__t is hungry for attention.

[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 12-31-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 11-22-2003 9:15 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Buzsaw, posted 12-31-2003 8:29 PM Prozacman has responded

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 131 of 258 (76053)
12-31-2003 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Quetzal
12-31-2003 8:56 AM


food chain dynamics
Quetzal,

Besides checking up on message 7, to edge, on the thread, the best scientific method, Is it science, You'll find ideas about "cascades" in my 1972 book, Populations in a Seasonal Environment, Princeton University Press, I have a graph showing the decline of open-nesting birds in the presence of an increase in blue jays, due to human feeding stations. When discussing this with others, there were no data, but I anecdotally noted that we had wood pewees nesting on the K-State campus where crows were nesting. The crows kept the blue jays away. I submitted a grant proposal in 1973, (rejected) trying to test these ideas with parula warblers, crows, and blue jays, using feeders. But my main claim to fame is my paper in the 1977 Perspectives in Biology and Medicine, on the Regulation of Plant Communities by the Food Chains exploiting Them, followed eventually by my (hopeful) tour-de-force, "Food chain dynamics, the Central Theory of Ecology" in Oikos, 1987.

Not that Diamond needed to get or got any of these ideas from me, (although we did attend the MacArthur Memorial Conference together, where I was discussing them.) Nor did I ever use the word, cascades, which is pretty sexy, or apply the concept as Diamond did. Even what I did do was heavily borrowed from Hairston, Smith, and Slobodkin, and it's development heavily dependent on Oksanen's brilliance. But, the Fenno-scandians insisted I write the Central Theory paper, and it validates the idea somewhat as Darwin's "Origin..." validates evolution.

My reservations about evolution, by the way stem from my days at Princeton, where I saw on Henry Horn's door, the sign,

"The origin of specious by the selection of natural means."

You'll have to ask Henry whether he was putting evolutionists down. Hope you get a better answer than I did.

Stephen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Quetzal, posted 12-31-2003 8:56 AM Quetzal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Quetzal, posted 01-02-2004 7:38 AM Stephen ben Yeshua has responded

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 132 of 258 (76056)
12-31-2003 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Quetzal
12-31-2003 8:56 AM


Name change
Hey, Quetzal,

I just noted that my name on post 7, the best scientific method, has been changed to Stephen ben Yeshua, from Stephen Fretwell (see post by Minnemooseus). You'll have to search under the Fretwell name, on the topics that have taken off.

Stephen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Quetzal, posted 12-31-2003 8:56 AM Quetzal has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Percy, posted 12-31-2003 8:37 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 133 of 258 (76084)
12-31-2003 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Coragyps
12-28-2003 7:40 PM


Coragyps, all I can do is give you my personal thoughts on this. It's a mysterious subject which I don't claim to speak with a lot of authority and I don't think many can. Judging from the one experience I had which I posted about how I (Christian) was attacked by a demon and had it not been that I was well doctrinated in how to deal with the evil, that is to rebuke/resist in the name of Jesus because Jesus is greater I would have failed in opposing it. Christians can do this with confidence and authority. However if you read on I related the experience of another Christian who was not indoctrinated with the right stuff to resist and he was overcome by the forces of evil, Christian or not.

To answer your questions, remember I said I was very tired from a very stressful day before the dream? I had an auction at my business and lost my shirt after a whole lot of work to get it up. This also may apply to disease, especially mental disease because demons work with the psyche of the mind. Deception of all kinds leave way for the false and evil to prevail. Things like Transcendental Metitation, Yoga, Wicca Buddhist no thought, and other Eastern stuff often sweeps the mind clean so as to allow the demons and their doctrines to fill the vacuum, so to speak. Drugs, both phamaceutical and otherwise may also affect the mind so as to lower the resistance. It's interesting the Greek for witchcraft is pharmacia/drugs. Don't forget the Columbine school shooting killer kids were on ritalin, as so many are and it's terrible stuff that ought not be allowed, but the [pharmacia] interests are powerful and money talks. As I said, this's a complex difficult subject and imo a lot of factors can play a role in understanding the mystery of evil.

[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 12-31-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Coragyps, posted 12-28-2003 7:40 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 134 of 258 (76085)
12-31-2003 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Prozacman
12-31-2003 4:07 PM


Hi Prozacman. I like Fox because at least they're not afraid to report stuff the others censor out for ideological reasons. They are, to a point "fair and balanced."

I hear what you are saying and certainly I can't be sure about anything, but I do believe the power of demons is very great and yes, one or more possessing this old fella could be the source of his power to live beyond. This likely raises another question, being "how do you discern between the good and the evil. My answer to that, in case you're about to ask is that the Bible and the Holy Spirit do that. If it's not scriptural that cancels out the good. From there, there's a gift of the Spirit listed among the gifts called the "discerning of the Spirits." Demons are known to quote truth, scripture and even say good things about Christ, but it's what they say about him or refuse to say that gives their ruse away.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Prozacman, posted 12-31-2003 4:07 PM Prozacman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Rrhain, posted 01-01-2004 5:39 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 145 by Prozacman, posted 01-02-2004 10:30 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 168 by nator, posted 01-11-2004 8:29 AM Buzsaw has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18577
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 135 of 258 (76086)
12-31-2003 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Stephen ben Yeshua
12-31-2003 4:13 PM


Re: Name change
Stephen ben Yeshua writes:

I just noted that my name on post 7, the best scientific method, has been changed to Stephen ben Yeshua, from Stephen Fretwell (see post by Minnemooseus). You'll have to search under the Fretwell name, on the topics that have taken off.

This is a bug. Searches for messages by Stephen ben Yeshua should return all messages by him under any of his aliases, including Stephen Fretwell. More generally, searches for messages by anyone should return all their messages under all of their aliases. The bug is an oversight and is easily fixed.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 12-31-2003 4:13 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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