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Author Topic:   What is Christianity?
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(3)
Message 181 of 451 (760750)
06-25-2015 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by jar
06-24-2015 8:44 PM


Re: who is a doctor or a Lion or an Elk?
The goal of this thread was to see if some clear definition of "What is Christianity" might be possible
Would not the most simple and straightforward definition be "someone who accepts and confesses the Apostle's Creed"? This seems to be the oldest comprehensive statement as to fundamental Christian beliefs. It also is short on the doctrinal disputes that arose later. It seems to me that it would be problematic for anyone to claim to be a Christian and reject any of the articles in the Apostle's Creed. I would, however, still consider some one a Christian that believed or disbelieved things not included in the Creed.
For example:
Whether or not the earth is 6,000 years old
Issues regarding the exact number of hours Jesus was in the tomb
Issues regarding what it means to have a personal relationship with Jesus
Whether grape juice or wine is used for communion
To me these are not qualifiers to whether someone is "Christian" or not. If the discussion was about which doctrines are right or wrong, then these may be issues, but not in regards to defining "Christian."
For reference:
quote:
Apostles' Creed
1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:
2. And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:
3. Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:
4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:
5. The third day he rose again from the dead:
6. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:
7. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:
8. I believe in the Holy Ghost:
9. I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:
10. The forgiveness of sins:
1l. The resurrection of the body:
12. And the life everlasting. Amen.
It would be really hard for someone to claim to be a Christian who doesn't accept this creed. Leave out one of these 12, and you belong to a different group - regardless of what "Club" you attend.
so far the answer is "No!"
I would say that if this is not the "definition", it is the criteria for being called a Christian. That's my opinion, for what it's worth.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by jar, posted 06-24-2015 8:44 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by jar, posted 06-25-2015 9:59 AM herebedragons has replied
 Message 192 by NoNukes, posted 06-25-2015 4:35 PM herebedragons has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 182 of 451 (760751)
06-25-2015 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by herebedragons
06-25-2015 9:38 AM


Re: who is a doctor or a Lion or an Elk?
It's interesting in that the Apostles creed makes no claim of a Trinity as in three in one. That is also true of the Nicene Creed but then there is the pesky Athanasian Creed.
With the addition of the Athanasian Creed the non-Trinitarians were excluded from Club Christian.
If we set a standard based on the first two creeds Christianity becomes quite broad.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by herebedragons, posted 06-25-2015 9:38 AM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by herebedragons, posted 06-26-2015 8:24 AM jar has replied

  
Rocky.C
Member (Idle past 3008 days)
Posts: 32
Joined: 06-17-2015


Message 183 of 451 (760760)
06-25-2015 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Faith
06-24-2015 8:56 AM


Re: Sunday worship and SDA legalism
But with Jesus' atonement, we are no longer required to keep the law. We are not under law, but grace Romans 6:14-15. The Sabbath is fulfilled in Jesus. He is our rest. We are not under obligation, by law, to keep it. And this goes for the Sabbath as well. It is not a requirement that we keep the law. If we were, then we still be under the law, but we are not.
-----------------------------------------------
***How simple-minded can people be. It is actually difficult to think that a grown individual believes what you have typed. You seem to have no comprehension at all of what Paul said. It slides right across the top of your head.
This is what the two verses say:
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Vs.15 states that we are to no longer sin. One of your own verses actually says that we are to stop sinning.
And, when we look at the very next verse:
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
We can still sin unto death. Talk about selective reading.
Also, Romans 6: 23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Do you want to know what sin is? You apparently have no idea!
1John 3:4
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Is a convicted murderer who is sentenced to death able to work for his freedom? No, absolutely not. Why? Because he is under the law, and the law demands death. Suppose that just before the date of his execution the governor reviews the man's case and pardons him. Now the prisoner is no longer under the law but under grace.
Yet, only a true idiot would suggest that the man is free to murder again. He must now follow the law. A pardon is only good for sins already committed.
Did you know that a man who says that he loves God yet refuses to obey His Commandments is a liar. Yes sir, he most certainly is.
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
1John 2:3-4 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
One cannot gain access to eternal life if they refuse to obey God's 10 Commandments. It doesn't do us any good to obey some and not the others.
Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Paul said this about the law:
Romans 7: 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. (Holy means sacred, blameless, or consecrated--in other words, worthy of religious worship).
Wouldn't it be horrible if all your neighbors were to obey the 10 Commandments. How dreadfully awful it would be to have neighbors that did not lie to us, or steal from us. I imagine that you would be furious if your neighbors did not covet you wife, and worse still if they refused to commit adultery with her
How lucky are those neighborhoods that have murders every day.
God must really love that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Faith, posted 06-24-2015 8:56 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 184 of 451 (760764)
06-25-2015 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by NoNukes
06-25-2015 4:15 AM


Re: who is a doctor or a Lion or an Elk?
NoNukes writes:
One of my aunts likes to ask, "If being a real Christian became illegal, could you even get yourself arrested". Her impression was that we ought to be able to recognize at least some aspect of Jesus teachings in your life.
If being a real Christian became illegal, the authorities would go to the Christian churches to arrest Christians. It seems unlikely that they would go after anybody who turned the other cheek or helped the poor.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by NoNukes, posted 06-25-2015 4:15 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Phat, posted 06-25-2015 1:08 PM ringo has replied
 Message 191 by NoNukes, posted 06-25-2015 4:18 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 185 of 451 (760765)
06-25-2015 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Rocky.C
06-25-2015 12:10 PM


Re: Sunday worship and SDA legalism
Wow. You show yourself to be a true legalist in this post. You totally misunderstand law and grace, which I guess shouldn't surprise me, it just proves that SDA theology IS legalistic.
Not being under the Law doesn't mean we don't obey God, far from it, what it means is that through God's grace we now CAN obey it, and not just outwardly as the Jews and other legalists do, but from the heart in love, in Jesus' strength rather than our own. Because Jesus FULFILLED the Law, "every jot and tittle" of it, and we have the immense privilege of being able to rest in His finished work on our behalf, now able to obey from the heart what before we could only obey partially and outwardly.
Being freed from the Law means being freed from condemnation for our inevitable failures. It's the "burden" Christ lifts from us when we believe on Him ("Come all ye who are heavy laden... My yoke is easy and My burden is light.") Legalists are subject to the Law's condemnation because they trust in their own human strength to obey it and fail to come anywhere near God's standard of obedience.
To be saved you have to give up any idea that you are capable of obeying the Law as God requires, which means absolutely perfectly ("every jot and tittle") and from the heart, and throw yourself as a hopeless sinner on God's mercy and the sacrifice of Christ. THEN you will be able to obey the Law from the heart, never perfectly but from the heart because Christ's death makes that possible.
ABE: As for the Sabbath, the word means "rest" and we understand that also to be fulfilled in Christ: HE is our rest from all our works.
ABE: In fact, what "works" means in this context is the ever-unsuccessful struggle to obey what we are incapable of obeying, and the Sabbath is then our resting in Christ's having done it for us, taking our heavy burden and giving us His light one in exchange. Perhaps it's fair to say that the whole thing is a metaphor for salvation, so it does make sense that a church that insists on a literal obedience of the Sabbath also teaches a legalistic works-righteousness and has no idea of salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Now I'm thinking SDA's aren't saved at all. Wow, you really need to reconsider all this.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Rocky.C, posted 06-25-2015 12:10 PM Rocky.C has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Phat, posted 06-25-2015 1:05 PM Faith has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 186 of 451 (760771)
06-25-2015 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Faith
06-25-2015 12:35 PM


Re: Sunday worship and SDA legalism
Faith writes:
To be saved you have to give up any idea that you are capable of obeying the Law as God requires, which means absolutely perfectly ("every jot and tittle") and from the heart, and throw yourself as a hopeless sinner on God's mercy and the sacrifice of Christ. THEN you will be able to obey the Law from the heart, never perfectly but from the heart because Christ's death makes that possible.
See this is what I've never understood. How can I give up trying and then suddenly be able to not only try but succeed? I still have trouble loving my neighbor as myself. I am still selfish. Granted I DO throw myself on His mercy---quite often I might add.
Granted I can do all things through Christ Who strengthens me---so the scripture says. But what does it mean? I can't suddenly run a 40 yard dash in under 4 minutes---nor can I stop gambling.
It has been said that the reason is because I prefer fantasy over reality. And yet I refuse to say that i am powerless. How can one be powerless and yet be able to do all things through Christ who strengthens them? Why is it wrong for me to try and do my best?

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Faith, posted 06-25-2015 12:35 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Faith, posted 06-25-2015 1:37 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 187 of 451 (760774)
06-25-2015 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by ringo
06-25-2015 12:29 PM


Re: who is a doctor or a Lion or an Elk?
ringo writes:
If being a real Christian became illegal, the authorities would go to the Christian churches to arrest Christians. It seems unlikely that they would go after anybody who turned the other cheek or helped the poor.
IF the authorities actually had the ability to spot a real Christian they may ignore the churches...there would be few to arrest.
They may well go after the atheist who turned the other cheek or helped the poor. Think about that one for a change!
Edited by Phat, : AbE: Spare Change

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by ringo, posted 06-25-2015 12:29 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by ringo, posted 06-25-2015 1:19 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 188 of 451 (760778)
06-25-2015 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Phat
06-25-2015 1:08 PM


Re: who is a doctor or a Lion or an Elk?
Phat writes:
IF the authorities actually had the ability to spot a real Christian they may ignore the churches...
How could they do that?
Phat writes:
They may well go after the atheist who turned the other cheek or helped the poor.
No matter how rabidly "evil" an authoritarian government was, its interest would still be in having the citizenry "get along". It's ridiculous to suggest that they would want to stop anybody form being Christ-like.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Phat, posted 06-25-2015 1:08 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Jon, posted 06-25-2015 4:42 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 189 of 451 (760782)
06-25-2015 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Phat
06-25-2015 1:05 PM


Re: Sunday worship and SDA legalism
Oy, Phat, you are making this way too complicated. There probably are some issues you need to understand better but that's true for all of us, and for those you should probably talk to a pastor who knows all this theology better than I do.
HOWEVER, I'll venture a word or two: We don't give up exerting ourselves and just become limp silly putty, that's not the idea. For most of us it takes a while to learn not to rely on our own strength for anything we do as Christians because it's so ingrained in us, but since you say you often do throw yourself on the Lord's mercy I'd say you're on the right track. It might help to keep reminding yourself of all the scriptures that tell us it's only through Him that we can do anything good, because it FEELS like it's our own strength even when it's Him empowering us. We ALL make this mistake. We won't ever be completely free of the fleshly stuff in this life, it's just a matter of keeping the focus as much as possible on Him. Pray for His strength and ask for faith to depend on His strength. .
The gambling habit is a good example of something you can't get rid of in your own strength, but in Christ's strength it should be possible, but that would have to do with learning how to rely on Him when the addiction strikes.
But a practical thought occurs. I haven't looked it up but that book Iano recommended, The Easy Way To Stop Smoking, which I've never read but from what he says about it sounds like how I gave up smoking, except I gave it up primarily by praying God would take it away from me. Still my own will was engaged in the work, but TOTALLY engaged so it really WAS easy to give it up, the urge just couldn't stay in my mind for half a second without being forcibly expelled because I truly did not want to smoke any more, truly, completely, absolutely and unequivocally, and I think that's the frame of mind the book brings people to.
Allen Carr is the author of that book and some others aimed at other addictions such as drugs and alcohol and overeating. I don't know if he has one on gambling. I'll look some time but you could look too. If you would LIKE to give up gambling that is. I don't know how bad your addiction is but I've known gamblers who pretty much destroy their own lives by it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Phat, posted 06-25-2015 1:05 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 190 of 451 (760788)
06-25-2015 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Faith
06-25-2015 1:37 PM


The Easy Way To Stop Gambling
The book does exist, I found it at
Amazon
It only got two reviews, but both very satisfied customers. May be worth a try.
Be sure to pray for the Lord's strength if you do try it though. I have a feeling it's very effective for anybody but I quit smoking because I gave it all to God even if the method was similar as I think it was.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Faith, posted 06-25-2015 1:37 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 191 of 451 (760793)
06-25-2015 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by ringo
06-25-2015 12:29 PM


Re: who is a doctor or a Lion or an Elk?
If being a real Christian became illegal, the authorities would go to the Christian churches to arrest Christians.
You are right of course. But the point of my aunt's rather impractical hypothetical is that simply identifying Church attendees is not the correct way to define true Christians. So either you missed my point or I didn't tell the story correctly.
It's ridiculous to suggest that they would want to stop anybody form being Christ-like.
Ridiculous or not, the arrest of people for being Christ-like is exactly the point of the story. It is, after all, just a hypothetical, a story told with the intention that the hearer examine him/her self.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by ringo, posted 06-25-2015 12:29 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by ringo, posted 06-26-2015 11:44 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 192 of 451 (760794)
06-25-2015 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by herebedragons
06-25-2015 9:38 AM


Re: who is a doctor or a Lion or an Elk?
It would be really hard for someone to claim to be a Christian who doesn't accept this creed.
I disagree with that such a thing would be hard. I admit that I'd find such a person a bit strange, but items 3 (at least the question regarding whether Mary was a virgin), and 11, that all humans will be bodily resurrected don't seem essential to me. I also don't find a belief in hell to be essential either.
If you were talking to such a person who professed to be Christian, how long do you think it might take to find out that he had such strange beliefs. For me, only the belief or lack of belief in hell is likely to come up during a conversation and maybe not even that.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by herebedragons, posted 06-25-2015 9:38 AM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by herebedragons, posted 06-26-2015 9:58 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 193 of 451 (760795)
06-25-2015 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by ringo
06-25-2015 1:19 PM


Re: who is a doctor or a Lion or an Elk?
No matter how rabidly "evil" an authoritarian government was, its interest would still be in having the citizenry "get along".
Really?
Because sometimes when the people are too busy scuffling amongst themselves they can be trusted not to notice the large dick raping them in the bank.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by ringo, posted 06-25-2015 1:19 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 194 of 451 (760807)
06-25-2015 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Phat
06-25-2015 7:34 AM


Re: still trying to define what Christianity is.
I see your point, but need to explain mine. The issue is not difficulty in getting along with my fellow man. The issue is being on the same page regarding GOD.
Right, and it somehow interferes with being able to participate in say a union meeting?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Phat, posted 06-25-2015 7:34 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Faith, posted 06-25-2015 8:01 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 195 of 451 (760809)
06-25-2015 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by jar
06-25-2015 8:00 AM


Re: who is a doctor or a Lion or an Elk?
What is a real Christian and how would that individual be noticed or identified?
I agree that I did not provide the answer to the question. I provided the anecdote to suggest a way someone might evaluate answers to the question 'What does it mean to be Christian?'
What I will suggest is that the only thing we modern people have available to tell us what Christ was like is the Bible. We simply don't have access to the narrative from the early churches save for that which appears in the NT.
I submit that it is possible to gain some insight into who Jesus was or was alleged to be by reading the NT, and in particularly the Gospels. If someone claimed to have some other way of following Christ, I'd have to have that explained to me before I modified my opinion.
I would expect such a persons behavior would be visibly different from a non-Christian and that the person would attribute those differences to Christ's teaching. If instead the person attributed his way of life to following Buddha, then the man is instead a Buddhist.
I probably cannot be more clear than that. If that does not suffice as an answer for you, so be it. Sorry for any lack of precision you might find.
Edited by NoNukes, : grammar

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by jar, posted 06-25-2015 8:00 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by jar, posted 06-25-2015 8:19 PM NoNukes has replied

  
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