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Author Topic:   What is Christianity?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 196 of 451 (760810)
06-25-2015 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by NoNukes
06-25-2015 7:46 PM


Re: still trying to define what Christianity is.
I read Phat as describing what all Christians should experience, a sense of commonality and shared assumptions and relatedness with other Christians that we don't have with unbelievers no matter what else we may have in common with them. He may have overstated his experience of being "uncomfortable" with unbelievers or that may be the personal part of his experience, but the sense of family a Christian gets with other Christians is to be expected. It's the Communion of the Saints.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by NoNukes, posted 06-25-2015 7:46 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by NoNukes, posted 06-25-2015 8:08 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 201 by nwr, posted 06-25-2015 8:58 PM Faith has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 197 of 451 (760811)
06-25-2015 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Faith
06-25-2015 8:01 PM


Re: still trying to define what Christianity is.
He may have overstated his experience of being "uncomfortable" with unbelievers or that may be the personal part of his experience, but the sense of family a Christian gets with other Christians is to be expected. It's the Communion of the Saints.
And you might note that I did not question him on his experiences with believers.
And why are you telling me that Phat may have overstated his experiences? If that is the case, I'd expect Phat could speak for himself. I understand that you are trying to help, but I'm not sure why it is useful for you to explain Phat's experiences to me as if I'd never been around any Christians.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Faith, posted 06-25-2015 8:01 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 198 of 451 (760814)
06-25-2015 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by NoNukes
06-25-2015 7:55 PM


Re: who is a doctor or a Lion or an Elk?
NN writes:
I would expect such a persons behavior would be visibly different from a non-Christian and that the person would attribute those differences to Christ's teaching. If instead the person attributed his way of life to following Buddha, then the man is instead a Buddhist.
How would such a persons behavior be visibly different if it is only attribution that distinguishes whether it is "Christian" behavior?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by NoNukes, posted 06-25-2015 7:55 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by NoNukes, posted 06-25-2015 8:39 PM jar has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 199 of 451 (760816)
06-25-2015 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by jar
06-25-2015 8:19 PM


Re: who is a doctor or a Lion or an Elk?
How would such a persons behavior be visibly different if it is only attribution that distinguishes whether it is "Christian" behavior?
I see that I was not clear, and that I did speak somewhat imprecisely by talking about Christians vs. non-Christians. The point is, as Moose mentioned, that an atheist knowing or not knowing anything about Christ might exhibit Christ like behavior just because he thinks that is the right thing to do.
However if the person does not attribute his behavior to following Christ and his teachings, or if he does not attempt to follow said teachings, then IMO he isn't a Christian. It does not imply an inferiority on his part any more than does being an Alpha Kappa Alpha shows superiority over being a Kappa Alpha Theta.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by jar, posted 06-25-2015 8:19 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by jar, posted 06-25-2015 8:45 PM NoNukes has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 200 of 451 (760817)
06-25-2015 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by NoNukes
06-25-2015 8:39 PM


Re: who is a doctor or a Lion or an Elk?
So it comes down to self-identification. Is that correct?
So a Christian is someone who self-identifies as a Christian?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by NoNukes, posted 06-25-2015 8:39 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by NoNukes, posted 06-25-2015 9:25 PM jar has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 201 of 451 (760818)
06-25-2015 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Faith
06-25-2015 8:01 PM


Re: still trying to define what Christianity is.
It's the Communion of the Saints.
Yet I suggest that you would feel more community with me than with a JW.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Faith, posted 06-25-2015 8:01 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Faith, posted 06-25-2015 10:14 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 202 of 451 (760820)
06-25-2015 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by jar
06-25-2015 8:45 PM


Re: who is a doctor or a Lion or an Elk?
So it comes down to self-identification. Is that correct?
That appears to be about fifty percent of what I posted. Yes, the identification with Christ is important, but it is not enough, and at this point I dispair of ever communicating that point to you. I yield.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by jar, posted 06-25-2015 8:45 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by jar, posted 06-25-2015 9:47 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 203 of 451 (760821)
06-25-2015 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by NoNukes
06-25-2015 9:25 PM


Re: who is a doctor or a Lion or an Elk?
NN writes:
That appears to be about fifty percent of what I posted. Yes, the identification with Christ is important, but it is not enough, and at this point I dispair of ever communicating that point to you. I yield.
Well, I hope you continue to strive to communicate.
Let me try.
Calvin was one of the most non-Christ like figures I can imagine. He was exclusive while Jesus was inclusive, anti-Semitic while Jesus was a Semite, all around a very not nice person yet I think most people would say that Calvin was a Christian.
There are many other examples, the Phelps family and Westboro Baptist Church come to mind but again, I think most people would consider them Christians even if only examples of Christianity at its worst.
There are Trinitarian Christians and non-Trinitarian Christians and Creedal Christians and some-Creedal Christians and Christians that are declared to not be Christians based on some creed yet following other older creeds and anti-science Christians and pro-science Christians.
There were the Puritans that could not get along with anyone anywhere in the world yet were Christians and the Amish that got along with everyone as long as they could be separate from everyone but still Christians and the Roman Catholics the certainly did not follow the teachings of Jesus in South America but were still Christians.
So where is the line for the fifty percent? Are we, can we, be justified in simply denying that those whose behavior was reprehensible were "True Christians?" Are we not morally obligated to admit our collective and individual failures, acknowledge, confess and repent them, attempt to make amends and try to do better in the future? Can we absolve Christianity simply by claiming some are not really Christians?
I am not trying to simply banter or deal in semantics. This is a serious question.
Do we not have to acknowledge that Christians more often than not do not behave Christ-like?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by NoNukes, posted 06-25-2015 9:25 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 204 of 451 (760825)
06-25-2015 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by nwr
06-25-2015 8:58 PM


Re: still trying to define what Christianity is.
Yet I suggest that you would feel more community with me than with a JW.
Possibly, though I'm not sure on what basis since you've said some pretty harsh things against me.
But JWs aren't Christians so not part of the Communion of the Saints so I'm not sure what would be proved. I spent quite a bit of time a few years ago with a JW neighbor who was of course trying to convert me, and I her. We had knowledge of a lot of scripture in common, but no basic agreement on the important points. I enjoyed her company for the most part though. But she was interesting in herself, "seven eighths" Cherokee with a beautiful face though she was 85. She died a few years ago.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by nwr, posted 06-25-2015 8:58 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Jon, posted 06-26-2015 7:15 AM Faith has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 205 of 451 (760835)
06-26-2015 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by Faith
06-25-2015 10:14 PM


Re: still trying to define what Christianity is.
But JWs aren't Christians ...
That's not what they think.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Faith, posted 06-25-2015 10:14 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Phat, posted 06-26-2015 7:23 AM Jon has not replied
 Message 209 by herebedragons, posted 06-26-2015 8:32 AM Jon has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 206 of 451 (760836)
06-26-2015 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by Jon
06-26-2015 7:15 AM


Re: still trying to define what Christianity is.
Basically JW's believe that Jesus Christ was the first created being and messenger/mediator. The mainline clubs of Christianity believe that Jesus was in the beginning--a bit of splitting hairs, I suppose. If the Creator of all seen and unseen foreknew that He would be made man at some point, the idea that His thought was a creation or was simply part of Him(Trinitarian) can be discussed. Based on that idea, that GODs thoughts are Him, all of creation was in the beginning. If an artist creates a painting, the painting is an idea (or creation) of the artist. IF, however, the artist always had the idea, the painting could almost be said to have been a part of the artists mind from the beginning.
Not sure if im making any sense.... perhaps the issue is whether Christ is to be venerated and worshipped on a level the same as Jehovah.

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Jon, posted 06-26-2015 7:15 AM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Faith, posted 06-26-2015 8:18 AM Phat has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 207 of 451 (760840)
06-26-2015 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by Phat
06-26-2015 7:23 AM


Re: still trying to define what Christianity is.
JWs believe Christ was a created being, an angel, Christians believe He is God Himself incarnate, the Second Person of the Trinity, which is One God in substance or attributes, in three Persons.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Phat, posted 06-26-2015 7:23 AM Phat has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 208 of 451 (760843)
06-26-2015 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by jar
06-25-2015 9:59 AM


Re: who is a doctor or a Lion or an Elk?
It's interesting in that the Apostles creed makes no claim of a Trinity as in three in one.
Good point. It also says nothing of the authority of Scripture, which is another source of contention with some Judaeo-Christian groups like LDS and JWs who hold other works to have equal or more authority than Scripture. However, I don't think either of those groups identify themselves as "Christian," but as completely separate religions - not just a branch of Christianity.
I have to wonder though, that if the Trinity was such an important idea in the early church, why was it not clear in the early Creeds as well as in the New Testament writings? I personally accept the doctrine and believe that the New Testament writings support the idea, but it is not clear to me that the writers and early church fathers really understood the concept and had made it a matter of doctrine. It seems to me they treated the Godhead as a trinity without realizing the implications and without implicitly explaining the doctrine... which of course leaves the whole issue up to interpretation at a later time.
So, I guess I would modify my definition/criteria somewhat to be "accepts and confesses the Apostles Creed AND self identifies as a Christian." ABE: It needs to be both, I don't think it should be "either/or." /ABE
I would also note that I would consider this to be the definition/criteria of the Christian religion. Being a part of the Christian religion is not necessarily a free pass on Judgement Day.
HBD
Edited by herebedragons, : clarity

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by jar, posted 06-25-2015 9:59 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by jar, posted 06-26-2015 8:49 AM herebedragons has not replied
 Message 212 by Faith, posted 06-26-2015 9:23 AM herebedragons has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 209 of 451 (760845)
06-26-2015 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by Jon
06-26-2015 7:15 AM


Re: still trying to define what Christianity is.
That's not what they think
I am pretty sure they don't identify themselves as Christian. They actually believe Christians are heretics for claiming Jesus to be God and an uncreated being. They don't follow or worship Jesus, they only follow and worship Jehovah.
So, they would not self-identify as Christian (nor would they be offended at being excluded)
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Jon, posted 06-26-2015 7:15 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Faith, posted 06-26-2015 9:02 AM herebedragons has replied
 Message 227 by Jon, posted 06-27-2015 4:32 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 210 of 451 (760848)
06-26-2015 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by herebedragons
06-26-2015 8:24 AM


Re: who is a doctor or a Lion or an Elk?
The Athanasian Creed seems a product of the 6th Century politics about who would control the church and is an early example of "exclusion", of anathemas. But even in the major Apostolic Churches like the Roman Catholic, Lutheran and Episcopal (CoE) chapters about the only time it comes up is on Trinity Sunday and it does not deal so much with who is a Christian as who will be saved.
The concept of the Creedal Christian is also not really new, I've always identified myself as a Cradle Creedal Christian.
Also, the definition of "scripture" has changed over time. It certainly didn't mean a "Bible" rather just any writing that was thought to be inspired. There were gospels and epistles and writings in circulation that did not make it into any of the various canons and even there the canons vary from the smallest (the Samaritan Orthodox canon that accepts only those books which might have been canonized at the time of Jesus life, the Pentateuch and excludes all of the New Testament ) to the Ethiopian Long canon that includes over eighty books.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by herebedragons, posted 06-26-2015 8:24 AM herebedragons has not replied

  
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