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Author Topic:   What is Christianity?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 256 of 451 (761395)
07-01-2015 6:19 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by jar
06-30-2015 2:04 PM


God is NOT a product of my imagination
Yet all of the evidence says otherwise.
Subjectively? No. I know you are a man of logic, reason, and reality. You often complain about Christians who refuse to take personal responsibility in life and who expect God to do everything to fix and/or cover up their mistakes. It may be that you view the CCoI as willfully ignorant and biased towards a fantasy...based on the God they create. The fact of the matter is, however, that we believe that God is alive. Now. We believe that we can talk with Him anytime and that He listens. We believe that He talks with us many ways. Through our conscience. Through our deep down awareness of the difference between right and wrong.
Phat,to jar writes:
Asa Creedal Christian, how do you reconcile Jesus BEFORE He was made man?
jar writes:
I don't. I can't.
You likely will say that it is because you are honest and never have any evidence that GOD (or Jesus) speaks to you.
I appreciate your honesty. We have discussed a time or two how many Christians are dishonest in these matters, claiming, perhaps that GOD told them something or the other when the facts would show that no external voice was ever heard.
In addition, you would probably be very wary of listening to or obeying inner voices. This too is wise. Many people are in prison for listening to an inner voice---telling them to kill their child, perhaps...or other outlandish delusions.
jar writes:
I am as clueless about that as everyone else who is not creating gods.
Personally, when I pray and/or talk with God, I am aware of the seeming illogic voiced by others regarding my sanity. I also am aware of what it is I believe. Assuming my own sanity, I pray and believe that He listens, counsels and advises me. I am still responsible for what I DO, however. Each day is a new lesson.
In summation, I believe that God is NOT a product of my imagination, but I readily admit that I cannot explain or prove why this is so except through how I live and relate to others. My actions are all the evidence I can provide.

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by jar, posted 06-30-2015 2:04 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by ringo, posted 07-02-2015 1:04 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 257 of 451 (761528)
07-02-2015 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by Phat
07-01-2015 6:19 AM


Re: God is NOT a product of my imagination
Phat writes:
God is NOT a product of my imagination
I agree. God is a product of somebody else's imagination. You just borrowed the hook, line and sinker.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Phat, posted 07-01-2015 6:19 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Phat, posted 07-02-2015 1:18 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 258 of 451 (761529)
07-02-2015 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by ringo
07-02-2015 1:04 PM


Re: God is NOT a product of my imagination
You know what I mean. He imagined/created us long before we even evolved enough to make him up.
I never understood why you rejected the concept. I suppose it really doesnt matter. You try and do your best and help people and do everything you are supposed to do...
I certainly disagree with GIA regarding gnostic christianity---at least as he sees it. And you claim atheism though given your family history, your sense of humor and your overall positive online personality I see no reason why He isnt using you in some manner. (despite your preference to simply be left alone)

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by ringo, posted 07-02-2015 1:04 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by ringo, posted 07-02-2015 1:26 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 259 of 451 (761532)
07-02-2015 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by Phat
07-02-2015 1:18 PM


Re: God is NOT a product of my imagination
Phat writes:
I never understood why you rejected the concept.
As I suggested, the concept was originated by "somebody else". I don't think the tendency to believe in gods is inherent in humans. Somebody makes up a god and convinces others to believe in it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Phat, posted 07-02-2015 1:18 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Phat, posted 08-05-2015 2:47 AM ringo has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 260 of 451 (765652)
08-03-2015 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by ringo
06-26-2015 11:44 AM


Re: who is a doctor or a Lion or an Elk?
And the point of the story is wrong. No government would arrest people for showing some aspect of Jesus' teaching in their lives. They'd arrest people who are members of a Christian organization.
Well, no ringo. What you are describing is not the point of the story, so it is you and not the story that is wrong.
Your position is exactly the same as rebutting the point of an Aesop's fable by insisting that tortoises and hares cannot actually talk and that they would never actually race each other. Yeah, that's true, but sleeping during a race is still a bad idea.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by ringo, posted 06-26-2015 11:44 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by ringo, posted 08-04-2015 12:11 PM NoNukes has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 261 of 451 (765691)
08-04-2015 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by NoNukes
08-03-2015 4:27 PM


Re: who is a doctor or a Lion or an Elk?
NoNukes writes:
What you are describing is not the point of the story, so it is you and not the story that is wrong.
You said in Message 191:
quote:
But the point of my aunt's rather impractical hypothetical is that simply identifying Church attendees is not the correct way to define true Christians.
But it's the ONLY way. You can't identify everybody who gives a dollar to a panhandler as a Christian.
NoNukes writes:
Your position is exactly the same as rebutting the point of an Aesop's fable by insisting that tortoises and hares cannot actually talk and that they would never actually race each other.
No. My position is that you can't identify a hare by the patterns on its shell.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by NoNukes, posted 08-03-2015 4:27 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by NoNukes, posted 08-05-2015 3:48 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 262 of 451 (765725)
08-05-2015 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by ringo
07-02-2015 1:26 PM


Re: God is NOT a product of my imagination
ringo writes:
I don't think the tendency to believe in gods is inherent in humans.
I agree...especially in modern culture. I knew about God (the mythos) for many years. I never planned on actual belief...being as important as it now is in my life.
Somebody makes up a god and convinces others to believe in it.
IIRC, nobody convinced me to believe. It was that one day I was changed.
What convinced me was that the feeling was just as strong the next morning...long after I should have forgotten about it.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by ringo, posted 07-02-2015 1:26 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2015 3:06 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 265 by ringo, posted 08-05-2015 3:08 PM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 263 of 451 (765726)
08-05-2015 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by Phat
08-05-2015 2:47 AM


Re: God is NOT a product of my imagination
Phat writes:
What convinced me was that the feeling was just as strong the next morning
Having worked in mental hospitals for a while I can tell you that people's minds can generate all manner of strong and convincing feelings that are quite delusionary and often permanent.
But suppose this feeling is real, why would God choose you? And more importantly why not me?
If believing in God is the only way to get into this heaven thing, isn't it rather unfair of him to pick some non-believers - like you and Faith - but not others. Why not pick us all? Why is he leaving people out? Does he have favourites or is he tossing his famous dice?
And, if he's barging into people's minds like this, what happened to your precious free will?
Can you see that there's all sorts of problems with this notion of being selectively saved?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Phat, posted 08-05-2015 2:47 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 264 of 451 (765727)
08-05-2015 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by ringo
08-04-2015 12:11 PM


Re: who is a doctor or a Lion or an Elk?
Nonukes writes:
But the point of my aunt's rather impractical hypothetical is that simply identifying Church attendees is not the correct way to define true Christians.
ringo writes:
But it's the ONLY way. You can't identify everybody who gives a dollar to a panhandler as a Christian.
Your response suggests that you lack even the slightest bit of imagination. Of course there are ways to identify Christians other than by catching them attending church.
1. We might arrest everyone wearing a crucifix.
2. We might bug their homes and catch them praying in the name of Jesus.
3. We might catch them reading the New Testament
4. We might have people report them when the attempted to proselytize.
5. We might ask them whether they worship Christ and arrest anyone who refused to simply deny being a Christian.
6. We might catch people who worship on days when church is closed.
7. We might arrest anyone we caught professing to be a Christian in public.
8. We might arrest everyone reading Bible verses through a megaphone on the sidewalk.
9. We might arrest everyone who gives a panhandler a sandwich and a Chick tract.
10. We might arrest people for attending church on any day except Sunday.
11. We might watch people who attend church, but only arrest them if they accumulate some number of points from doing items 1-10 from above list.
The methods above might be more or less reliable than simply catching people leaving a church. But at least some of them are in tune with my Aunt's point which is that there are plenty of posers in church. But the idea that finding people at church is the only way to identify a Christian is ludicrous. I've identified fellow Christians during conversations at the bus stop. Maybe you can too.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by ringo, posted 08-04-2015 12:11 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by ringo, posted 08-05-2015 3:13 PM NoNukes has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 265 of 451 (765751)
08-05-2015 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Phat
08-05-2015 2:47 AM


Re: God is NOT a product of my imagination
Phat writes:
IIRC, nobody convinced me to believe. It was that one day I was changed.
If you hadn't known about the mythos, would you have thought of it by yourself? Do you think it's just coincidence that you happen to live in a Christian culture and you happen to believe in the Christian God? I'd be impressed if God was communing with you and telling you his prophet was Mohammed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Phat, posted 08-05-2015 2:47 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Phat, posted 08-06-2015 4:49 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 266 of 451 (765753)
08-05-2015 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by NoNukes
08-05-2015 3:48 AM


Re: who is a doctor or a Lion or an Elk?
NoNukes writes:
The methods above might be more or less reliable than simply catching people leaving a church.
Your Big Brother methods would involve a lot of work. Authoritarians are interested in suppressing subversives and the easiest way to suppress subversives is by suppressing subversive organizations. Unorganized subversives aren't that much of a threat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by NoNukes, posted 08-05-2015 3:48 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by NoNukes, posted 08-05-2015 5:22 PM ringo has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 267 of 451 (765778)
08-05-2015 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by ringo
08-05-2015 3:13 PM


Goal post shifting, double standard BS...
Your Big Brother methods would involve a lot of work.
Yes, they would. And that effort would be absolutely beside the point in what was a hypothetical thought experiment.
But of course if all you are really trying to do is shift the goal posts from impossible to impractical, then you have a perfectly great ringo argument; an argument that is just as pointless as telling us that turtles cannot talk.
I wonder if Einstein knew that there were no elevators in space and that there were no uniform gravitational fields?
ABE:
As if further evidence of your BS were required, apparently it is okay for you to bring up and rule out giving money to pandhandlers as not effective at identifying Christians, but somehow impractical when I bring up 'giving panhandler's a Chick tract' or arresting people for using a megaphone on street corners, those things are somehow too difficult and must be ruled out regardless of whether they are effective.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by ringo, posted 08-05-2015 3:13 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by ringo, posted 08-06-2015 11:46 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 268 of 451 (765817)
08-06-2015 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by NoNukes
08-05-2015 5:22 PM


Re: Goal post shifting, double standard BS...
NoNukes writes:
But of course if all you are really trying to do is shift the goal posts from impossible to impractical, then you have a perfectly great ringo argument....
I have no idea what you think you're disagreeing with. Could you be more clear?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by NoNukes, posted 08-05-2015 5:22 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 269 of 451 (765824)
08-06-2015 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by ringo
08-05-2015 3:08 PM


God preferences
Ringo writes:
If you hadn't known about the mythos, would you have thought of it by yourself?
No way to know.
Do you think it's just coincidence that you happen to live in a Christian culture and you happen to believe in the Christian God?
If we had access to the statistics of percentages of people from other cultures 'converting" to another religion, I could tell you more.
I'd be impressed if God was communing with you and telling you his prophet was Mohammed.
Whats so unimpressive about Jesus? As a sidenote...I expect that the name of Jesus is more widely hated than the name of Mohammed.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by ringo, posted 08-05-2015 3:08 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Omnivorous, posted 08-06-2015 5:15 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 272 by ringo, posted 08-07-2015 11:49 AM Phat has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 270 of 451 (765828)
08-06-2015 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by Phat
08-06-2015 4:49 PM


Re: God preferences
Phat writes:
I expect that the name of Jesus is more widely hated than the name of Mohammed.
I expect you're wildly wrong.
Islam venerates Christ as a prophet; Hindus are generally happy to view him as another avatar of God, and Buddhists generally view Jesus as an enlightened being. Jews, of course, might be bemused at your failure to leave their Book alone and just use his, but I've never seen any hate. Pagans think he needs rescue from the Puritans but is worth it.
Who do you think hates the name of Jesus?

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Phat, posted 08-06-2015 4:49 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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