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Author | Topic: Does God demand equality? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Greatest I am Member (Idle past 301 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
jar
A better Christian church than most now that it is modernizing. A question on your House of Bishops. How many men and how many women in it? ---------- Nice that you are not literalist readers of all scriptures, but you still must read some literally if you are to maintain a belief in Jesus. Which begs the question on Jesus as your savior and scapegoat and the morality of it. Care to debate that here or in a new O.P. I will show my short apology here but can move if you wish to engage. I get few takers so this apology might be a good one but am always hopeful that someone will take me on. Human sacrifice is evil and your God demanding one and accepting one is evil. You trying to profit from that evil is evil. Do just a bit of thinking and you will agree. Imagine you have two children. One of your children does something wrong — say it curses, or throws a temper tantrum, or something like that. In fact, say it does this on a regular basis, and you continually forgive your child, but it never seems to change. Now suppose one day you’ve had enough, you need to do something different. You still wish to forgive your child, but nothing has worked. Do you go to your second child, your good child, and punish it to atone for the sins of the first? In fact, if you ever saw a parent on the street punish one of their children for the actions of their other child, how would you react? Would you support their decision, or would you be offended? Because God punished Jesus -- his good child -- for the sins of his other children. Interestingly, some historical royal families would beat their slaves when their own children did wrong — you should not, after all, ever beat a prince. The question is: what kind of lesson does that teach the child who actually did the harm? Does it teach them to be a better person, to stop doing harm, or does it teach them both that they won't themselves be punished, and also that punishing other people is normal? I know that's not a lesson I would want to teach my children, and I suspect it's not a lesson most Christians would want to teach theirs. So why does God? For me, that’s at least one significant reason I find Jesus’ atonement of our sin to be morally repugnant — of course, that’s assuming Jesus ever existed; that original sin actually exists; that God actually exists; etc. Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. Do you agree?If not, please show how it is morally and legally good to punish the innocent instead of the guilty, bearing in mind that all legal systems think that punishing the guilty is what is justice. RegardsDL
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 301 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
ringo
"Our thinking should override our instincts in many cases." As long as it is in many cases and not all. My statement thus stands and hate has a justified place in our thinking, with your caveat reducing the instances of hate without eliminating them all. RegardsDL
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
GIA writes: A question on your House of Bishops. How many men and how many women in it? I honestly have no idea but imagine there are many more men Bishops than women Bishops. The Episcopal Church is not a secret organization though and they even have a website where you can get some information and contact them for additional information. It is one of the two "Houses" that make decisions and that is the much larger House of Deputies.
GIA writes: Nice that you are not literalist readers of all scriptures, but you still must read some literally if you are to maintain a belief in Jesus. Which begs the question on Jesus as your savior and scapegoat and the morality of it. Care to debate that here or in a new O.P. Well, I need to believe that someone named Jesus probably lived and likely taught something like what is recorded in the stories but not much more that I can think of. But again, when you mention "Jesus as your savior and scapegoat" you are just once again showing your ignorance and creating a strawman so I'm not sure what there really is to debate?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Greatest I am writes:
No, your statement doesn't stand. You haven't said anything to justify your hate.
As long as it is in many cases and not all. My statement thus stands....
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 301 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
jar
You like to use the words ignorant and straw-man. It is becoming your mantra to hide behind. I do not agree that what I say is ignorant or a straw-man. It is pure Christian dogma and one of their more immoral concepts. Make your case or smarten up with your ignorant remarks. Reciprocity is fair play and I am not interested in using your ignorant language. If Jesus is not your savior and scapegoat, what is he? RegardsDL Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 301 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
ringo
My hate is justified by evolution and my instincts and biases. http://www.cbsnews.com/...elp-unlock-the-origins-of-morality This orchestra's blind audition proves bias sneaks in when you least expect it. - Upworthy If you are not with me, you are against me. If I am not with you, I am against you. RegardsDL
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I understand that you don't agree but that is because you still have so much to learn.
In the historic Hebrew sacrifice tradition there were two examples, the sacrificial lamb and the scape goat. They were not the same thing. The sacrificial lamb was killed (and eaten) while the sins of the community were symbolically placed on the scape goat that was then released out into the desert to carry away the communities sins. It was not killed.
GIA writes: I do not agree that what I say is ignorant or a straw-man. It is pure Christian dogma and one of their more immoral concepts. Again, you simply show your ignorance. There is no one thing we can call Christian Dogma. Different chapters of Club Christian have their own sets of dogma which often differs significantly from other chapters.
GIA writes: If Jesus is not your savior and scapegoat, what is he? The idea that Jesus death was some sacrifice to pay for others sins is not just immoral but makes God look stupid. Jesus was (according to the stories) born of a woman and anything born of a woman is going to die. So far all of the evidence supports that assertion. Second, Jesus death was not anything really unusual, there were at least two others killed in the same way that same day on the same hill. Third, if God was capable of forgiving man's failings, then God could certainly do that without all the show. Fourth, Jesus was not the only person raised from the dead in the Bible stories or even the only person that ascended into heaven in those stories. Fifth, the concept of Jesus death paying for sins, while very marketable, seems to be nothing but a cop out. Sixth, the concept of Jesus' death as a sacrificial lamb (note the difference) simply cheapens and diminishes the value and meaning of His life and message. I will gladly expand this lesson once you show you understand what I have presented so far.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Greatest I am writes:
No, your hate is caused by evolution and by your instincts and biases. Racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. all have the same cause as your hate. You can rationalize your hate in terms of "I was born that way" or "I was raised that way" or even "the Devil made me do it"' but none of that excuses your hate.
My hate is justified by evolution and my instincts and biases.
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 301 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
jar
If you have no need for a savior, why bother seeking a God? Who is your God? RegardsDL
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 301 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
ringo
Now your just not making sense. RegardsDL
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Too funny.
Where did I say I had no need of a savior? What does that have to do with whether or not there is a God? What does any of your posts have to do with the topic?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
GIA writes: Nice that you are not literalist readers of all scriptures, but you still must read some literally if you are to maintain a belief in Jesus. Which begs the question on Jesus as your savior and scapegoat and the morality of it. My "Club" has always maintained that Jesus essentially stepped out of eternity (As He Was In The Beginning) into time in order to be a solution to the problem of Original Sin. The way I see it, God created a freewilled lucifer who chose to become satan. When God created good and evil, God essentially created only the possibility of evil---which had to be initially actualized--through choice---by Lucifer. Once this was done, humans were presented with an awareness of right and wrong and given a choice. This choice continues to this day. In my belief, we are responsible for our choice. Choosing Jesus Christ does not absolve us of the responsibility of daily choice...but it does give us a solution that not everyone has by birthright...it is a solution that must be chosen. jar will disagree. God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Where did I say I had no need of a savior? IIRC, you have mentioned that salvation is a gift. You have also said, IIRC, that We are responsible to try to do our best---on a daily basis. Thus your idea of salvation is arrived at through doing. My idea of salvation always involves God doing it for me.(A bit Calvinist) Jesus was, is, and forever shall be. You might mention that once humans were given the gift of the knowledge between right and wrong, we never again had an excuse that we were fallen. Which is one thing I have not arrived at a decision about in my belief paradigm.God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: IIRC, you have mentioned that salvation is a gift. You have also said, IIRC, that We are responsible to try to do our best---on a daily basis. Thus your idea of salvation is arrived at through doing. Again, perhaps you should stick to explaining what you believe since you seem to be always wrong when you try to explain what I believe.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Greatest I am writes:
And you're not even trying to make a point. Why don't you explain HOW my point doesn't make sense?
Now your just not making sense.
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