Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 84 (8914 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 06-18-2019 11:49 PM
25 online now:
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: 4petdinos
Post Volume:
Total: 854,107 Year: 9,143/19,786 Month: 1,565/2,119 Week: 325/576 Day: 128/98 Hour: 1/5


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev12
3
4Next
Author Topic:   Does God demand equality?
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 545 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 31 of 60 (761540)
07-02-2015 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by jar
07-02-2015 9:41 AM


jar

A better Christian church than most now that it is modernizing.

A question on your House of Bishops. How many men and how many women in it?

----------

Nice that you are not literalist readers of all scriptures, but you still must read some literally if you are to maintain a belief in Jesus.

Which begs the question on Jesus as your savior and scapegoat and the morality of it.

Care to debate that here or in a new O.P.

I will show my short apology here but can move if you wish to engage. I get few takers so this apology might be a good one but am always hopeful that someone will take me on.

Human sacrifice is evil and your God demanding one and accepting one is evil.

You trying to profit from that evil is evil. Do just a bit of thinking and you will agree.

Imagine you have two children. One of your children does something wrong – say it curses, or throws a temper tantrum, or something like that. In fact, say it does this on a regular basis, and you continually forgive your child, but it never seems to change.

Now suppose one day you’ve had enough, you need to do something different. You still wish to forgive your child, but nothing has worked. Do you go to your second child, your good child, and punish it to atone for the sins of the first?

In fact, if you ever saw a parent on the street punish one of their children for the actions of their other child, how would you react? Would you support their decision, or would you be offended? Because God punished Jesus -- his good child -- for the sins of his other children.

Interestingly, some historical royal families would beat their slaves when their own children did wrong – you should not, after all, ever beat a prince. The question is: what kind of lesson does that teach the child who actually did the harm? Does it teach them to be a better person, to stop doing harm, or does it teach them both that they won't themselves be punished, and also that punishing other people is normal? I know that's not a lesson I would want to teach my children, and I suspect it's not a lesson most Christians would want to teach theirs. So why does God?

For me, that’s at least one significant reason I find Jesus’ atonement of our sin to be morally repugnant – of course, that’s assuming Jesus ever existed; that original sin actually exists; that God actually exists; etc.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

Do you agree?
If not, please show how it is morally and legally good to punish the innocent instead of the guilty, bearing in mind that all legal systems think that punishing the guilty is what is justice.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 07-02-2015 9:41 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 07-02-2015 8:00 PM Greatest I am has responded
 Message 42 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-05-2015 8:49 AM Greatest I am has responded

    
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 545 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 32 of 60 (761541)
07-02-2015 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by ringo
07-02-2015 11:44 AM


ringo

"Our thinking should override our instincts in many cases."

As long as it is in many cases and not all.

My statement thus stands and hate has a justified place in our thinking, with your caveat reducing the instances of hate without eliminating them all.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by ringo, posted 07-02-2015 11:44 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 07-03-2015 11:49 AM Greatest I am has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30984
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 33 of 60 (761576)
07-02-2015 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Greatest I am
07-02-2015 1:57 PM


more learning opportunities.
GIA writes:

A question on your House of Bishops. How many men and how many women in it?

I honestly have no idea but imagine there are many more men Bishops than women Bishops. The Episcopal Church is not a secret organization though and they even have a website where you can get some information and contact them for additional information. It is one of the two "Houses" that make decisions and that is the much larger House of Deputies.

GIA writes:

Nice that you are not literalist readers of all scriptures, but you still must read some literally if you are to maintain a belief in Jesus.

Which begs the question on Jesus as your savior and scapegoat and the morality of it.

Care to debate that here or in a new O.P.

Well, I need to believe that someone named Jesus probably lived and likely taught something like what is recorded in the stories but not much more that I can think of.

But again, when you mention "Jesus as your savior and scapegoat" you are just once again showing your ignorance and creating a strawman so I'm not sure what there really is to debate?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Greatest I am, posted 07-02-2015 1:57 PM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Greatest I am, posted 07-04-2015 9:58 AM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16634
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 34 of 60 (761626)
07-03-2015 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Greatest I am
07-02-2015 2:03 PM


Greatest I am writes:

As long as it is in many cases and not all.

My statement thus stands....


No, your statement doesn't stand. You haven't said anything to justify your hate.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Greatest I am, posted 07-02-2015 2:03 PM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Greatest I am, posted 07-04-2015 10:05 AM ringo has responded

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 545 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 35 of 60 (761689)
07-04-2015 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by jar
07-02-2015 8:00 PM


Re: more learning opportunities.
jar

You like to use the words ignorant and straw-man. It is becoming your mantra to hide behind.

I do not agree that what I say is ignorant or a straw-man. It is pure Christian dogma and one of their more immoral concepts.

Make your case or smarten up with your ignorant remarks.

Reciprocity is fair play and I am not interested in using your ignorant language.

If Jesus is not your savior and scapegoat, what is he?

Regards
DL

Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 07-02-2015 8:00 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 07-04-2015 10:30 AM Greatest I am has responded

    
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 545 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 36 of 60 (761690)
07-04-2015 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by ringo
07-03-2015 11:49 AM


ringo

My hate is justified by evolution and my instincts and biases.

http://www.cbsnews.com/...elp-unlock-the-origins-of-morality

http://www.upworthy.com/...neaks-in-when-you-least-expect-it

If you are not with me, you are against me. If I am not with you, I am against you.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 07-03-2015 11:49 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by ringo, posted 07-04-2015 11:45 AM Greatest I am has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30984
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 37 of 60 (761692)
07-04-2015 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Greatest I am
07-04-2015 9:58 AM


Re: more learning opportunities.
I understand that you don't agree but that is because you still have so much to learn.

In the historic Hebrew sacrifice tradition there were two examples, the sacrificial lamb and the scape goat. They were not the same thing. The sacrificial lamb was killed (and eaten) while the sins of the community were symbolically placed on the scape goat that was then released out into the desert to carry away the communities sins. It was not killed.

GIA writes:

I do not agree that what I say is ignorant or a straw-man. It is pure Christian dogma and one of their more immoral concepts.

Again, you simply show your ignorance. There is no one thing we can call Christian Dogma. Different chapters of Club Christian have their own sets of dogma which often differs significantly from other chapters.

GIA writes:

If Jesus is not your savior and scapegoat, what is he?

The idea that Jesus death was some sacrifice to pay for others sins is not just immoral but makes God look stupid. Jesus was (according to the stories) born of a woman and anything born of a woman is going to die. So far all of the evidence supports that assertion.

Second, Jesus death was not anything really unusual, there were at least two others killed in the same way that same day on the same hill.

Third, if God was capable of forgiving man's failings, then God could certainly do that without all the show.

Fourth, Jesus was not the only person raised from the dead in the Bible stories or even the only person that ascended into heaven in those stories.

Fifth, the concept of Jesus death paying for sins, while very marketable, seems to be nothing but a cop out.

Sixth, the concept of Jesus' death as a sacrificial lamb (note the difference) simply cheapens and diminishes the value and meaning of His life and message.

I will gladly expand this lesson once you show you understand what I have presented so far.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Greatest I am, posted 07-04-2015 9:58 AM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Greatest I am, posted 07-04-2015 5:59 PM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16634
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 38 of 60 (761695)
07-04-2015 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Greatest I am
07-04-2015 10:05 AM


Greatest I am writes:

My hate is justified by evolution and my instincts and biases.


No, your hate is caused by evolution and by your instincts and biases. Racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. all have the same cause as your hate. You can rationalize your hate in terms of "I was born that way" or "I was raised that way" or even "the Devil made me do it"' but none of that excuses your hate.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Greatest I am, posted 07-04-2015 10:05 AM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Greatest I am, posted 07-04-2015 6:01 PM ringo has responded

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 545 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 39 of 60 (761726)
07-04-2015 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by jar
07-04-2015 10:30 AM


Re: more learning opportunities.
jar

If you have no need for a savior, why bother seeking a God?

Who is your God?

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 07-04-2015 10:30 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 07-04-2015 6:52 PM Greatest I am has responded

    
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 545 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 40 of 60 (761727)
07-04-2015 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by ringo
07-04-2015 11:45 AM


ringo

Now your just not making sense.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by ringo, posted 07-04-2015 11:45 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by ringo, posted 07-05-2015 2:20 PM Greatest I am has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30984
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 41 of 60 (761733)
07-04-2015 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Greatest I am
07-04-2015 5:59 PM


Re: more learning opportunities.
Too funny.

Where did I say I had no need of a savior?

What does that have to do with whether or not there is a God?

What does any of your posts have to do with the topic?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Greatest I am, posted 07-04-2015 5:59 PM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-05-2015 8:55 AM jar has responded
 Message 47 by Greatest I am, posted 07-06-2015 10:51 AM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12417
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 42 of 60 (761759)
07-05-2015 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Greatest I am
07-02-2015 1:57 PM


Jesus As Savior & Scapegoat
GIA writes:

Nice that you are not literalist readers of all scriptures, but you still must read some literally if you are to maintain a belief in Jesus.

Which begs the question on Jesus as your savior and scapegoat and the morality of it.

My "Club" has always maintained that Jesus essentially stepped out of eternity (As He Was In The Beginning) into time in order to be a solution to the problem of Original Sin. The way I see it, God created a freewilled lucifer who chose to become satan. When God created good and evil, God essentially created only the possibility of evil---which had to be initially actualized--through choice---by Lucifer. Once this was done, humans were presented with an awareness of right and wrong and given a choice. This choice continues to this day.

In my belief, we are responsible for our choice.

Choosing Jesus Christ does not absolve us of the responsibility of daily choice...but it does give us a solution that not everyone has by birthright...it is a solution that must be chosen.

jar will disagree.


God created war so that Americans would learn geography. –Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Greatest I am, posted 07-02-2015 1:57 PM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Greatest I am, posted 07-06-2015 10:59 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12417
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 43 of 60 (761761)
07-05-2015 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by jar
07-04-2015 6:52 PM


Re: more learning opportunities.
jar writes:

Where did I say I had no need of a savior?

IIRC, you have mentioned that salvation is a gift.

You have also said, IIRC, that We are responsible to try to do our best---on a daily basis.

Thus your idea of salvation is arrived at through doing.

My idea of salvation always involves God doing it for me.(A bit Calvinist)

Jesus was, is, and forever shall be.

You might mention that once humans were given the gift of the knowledge between right and wrong, we never again had an excuse that we were fallen.

Which is one thing I have not arrived at a decision about in my belief paradigm.


God created war so that Americans would learn geography. –Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 07-04-2015 6:52 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 07-05-2015 9:04 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30984
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 44 of 60 (761763)
07-05-2015 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Thugpreacha
07-05-2015 8:55 AM


Re: more learning opportunities.
Phat writes:

IIRC, you have mentioned that salvation is a gift.

You have also said, IIRC, that We are responsible to try to do our best---on a daily basis.

Thus your idea of salvation is arrived at through doing.

Again, perhaps you should stick to explaining what you believe since you seem to be always wrong when you try to explain what I believe.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-05-2015 8:55 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Greatest I am, posted 07-06-2015 11:06 AM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16634
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 45 of 60 (761777)
07-05-2015 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Greatest I am
07-04-2015 6:01 PM


Greatest I am writes:

Now your just not making sense.


And you're not even trying to make a point. Why don't you explain HOW my point doesn't make sense?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Greatest I am, posted 07-04-2015 6:01 PM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Greatest I am, posted 07-06-2015 11:08 AM ringo has responded

  
Prev12
3
4Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019