Summations Only

Hogwash.Hint. Taxing power.Regards
DL

GDR"You and others have posted unevidenced theories of how altruism evolved. Those theories may or may not be correct, but regardless, it still tells us nothing about why moralism and altruism have evolved the way they have."Quite simply, cooperation is a better survival tool than competition.Especially with animals like us who take so long to get off the tit, so to speak.You want evidence of altruism/cooperation being our default position.Here it is.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PARegards
DL

GDRYour,--- "Try re-reading my last reply to Tangle. Like Tangle you confuse process with cause or agency."The process we can study. The cause or agency we cannot as that was evolutionary and over what is likely to be millions of years of selection from our past ancestors.If you wish to know more you would have to study the lower animals I think but even then, I don't think you will ever know all of the DNA changes or errors that occurred to make us what we now are.Your quest is like trying to find the cause of the big bang. Good luck.Regards
DL

GDRYou seek the God of the Gaps.Consider that if there was a pre-existing intelligence, --- and that that intelligence was still alive and not consumed by its own merging or becoming the big bang, then,if unable to communicate with us or show itself, then what good would it be to us if we somehow found it? We could never know that it was really the first cause.If a God wanted to be relevant to man then it would show up. The fact it hides tells me all I need to know and that is why I discuss the morals of the Gods on offer and do not care if any even exist.God should be as important to us as we are to him and he is ignoring us and we should do the same with his absentee ass.Better to stop lying to ourselves about supernatural entities that do not exist. We have fought enough wars over imaginary Gods.Regards
DL

RingoI guess I should not assume that we are in step.Your original, --- "No, I think we live in states where the government doesn't/can't legislate religion."I responded with, ---" Hint. Taxing power."What I meant that Government can and does control the churches tax exempt status and can withdraw it as required.Let me add that Governments already force churches to comply with some secular laws.I E.
J. W.'s and their blood transfusion policy and some churches are ordered not to protest close to funerals for soldiers.I see no reason to not tie their immoral homophobia and misogyny to their tax exemption. You and I make up the shortfall that they do not pay and I for one resent my tax dollars in effect paying for immoral policies against the women in my family.I am a man of peace but ---- if I hadhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7vCww3j2-wRegards
DL

GDRI ignore your imaginary friend for sure but not the Jesus I follow.Have a look at what he says compared to your Roman created ass kissing slave loving wimp. This one believes in freedom from religion.Gnostic Christians are perpetual seekers after God. God here I define God as the best laws and rules to live life with.We believe that those laws and rules, as Jesus said, are found in our minds/hearts.I use the following to try to illustrate this notion. A bit of history and then a mindset and method to do what I promote.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&l...The thinking shown below is the Gnostic Christian’s goal as taught by Jesus but know that any belief can be internalized to activate your higher mind.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=playe...This method and mind set is how you become I am and brethren to Jesus, in the esoteric sense.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8YWhen you can name your God, I am, and mean yourself, you will begin to know the only God you will ever find. Becoming a God is to become more fully human and a brethren to Jesus.Regards
DL

PhatGenesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.The context is the talking serpent informing Eve of the information that God had lied about by omission in telling Adam of the benefits and punishments of eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.You will note that in the story, God warns of dying, which ends up looking like a lie, while the talking serpent gives a longer list. God later confirms what the serpent says and then arbitrarily and immorally adds on a bunch more penalties or consequences including God murdering A & E by neglect by denying them what would keep them alive. The tree of life.As to how I follow myself. Do you not follow what your mind tells you to do?When you do, as we all do, are you not following yourself and whatever you are thinking?Regards
DL

TangleIn a provocative way? Perhaps.I just see it as in the Gnostic Christian and older Jewish traditional way.Like Jesus does when asking if we have forgotten that we are Gods.He of course was thinking of the Jewish Divine Council.I do agree that it serves humanists ideologies well but adds an esoteric or Gnostic component.Regards
DL

ringo"But it can't force them to change their doctrine."Think about Waco Texas.Our countries are ruled by governments, not by religions, and the government can do whatever it deems fit to and against any religion.Regards
DL

Tangle, GDR et all.This orchestra's blind audition proves bias sneaks in when you least expect it. - Upworthyhttp://www.cbsnews.com/...elp-unlock-the-origins-of-moralityAs you can see from the links, we are naturally bias and that since it appears at such an early age, we can say that it is a part of our instincts and selfish gene that knows the best survival path thanks to the thousands or millions of years it has taken man to develop.I don't think science knows exactly how far back in time our genetic roots began. There is too much genetic material that we share with lower animals.Regards
DLEdited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.

PhatIndeed.We, our attitudes and morals, are all created or formed by all we learn from books, others and personal experience.It is my view that, since in the past, we have altered and changed the books we read, including the various translations of the Qur'an, and there are quite a few given the various Islamic sects, then to promote change is not out of the question as it has been acted on before.A new Qur'an is thus quite possible and since the old ones are proving to produce jihadists, I would think that a new and morally improved Qur'an would serve us well.The literalism and idol worship of the Qur'an which most Muslims presently adopt would need to be diminished but as Christianity has shown, the number of literalist believers can be relegated to a smaller % of the faith. A smaller right wing fundamental Islam would thus produce less jihadists than what it presently does.I do not pretend that it will be an easy task as Christianity had to itself rebel against itself when the left wing finally reared it's more tolerant and thus beautiful side of Christianity.Naysayers have not convinced me otherwise and have not proposed anything other than education as a remedy. --- and to that I would certainly agree, --- but the education that Muslims get of their religion is the Qur'an and to leave them to learn something that produces so many militant jihadists is not how we can use education to change their mind set.Regards
DLPhatClose her up my friend.
Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.

TangleNot that long my friend. They estimate that the tipping point of belief will be 2050.I did have a link to the clip on it but Through the Wormhole or Discovery Chanel pulled it.Regards
DL

Two words come to mind.Dark Ages and Inquisition.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&l...The seeking after a God is good.Finding one and turning to idol worship like Christianity and Islam have done is evil.Bill Moyers Journal . Watch & Listen | PBSRabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."Please listen as to what is said about literal reading."Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."Regards
DL