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Author Topic:   Galileo Was Wrong, Okay?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 34 of 54 (761365)
06-30-2015 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by PaulK
06-30-2015 3:41 PM


The issue is whether relativity undermines itself by making a stationary Earth equivalent to an orbiting Earth, as you claimed. It does not. And the reason is that an orbiting Earth is accelerating, and therefore a frame of reference that takes the Earth as stationary cannot be equivalent because of that acceleration.

All correct PaulK.

People promoting geocentric ideas play lip service to relativity as a way of introducing their topic, but they cannot actually accept either Galileo's or Einstein's version of relativity nor can they accept Newtonian mechanics. To the extent that the contend that the sun is not the center of the universe, they are right. But the rest of this stuff is silly.

If the geocentric picture of the world is correct, then the sun orbits the earth daily with each orbit varying in distance from the earth, inclination to the ecliptic, and orbital speed in ways that cannot be predicted or explained by any coherent theory of the universe. And yet these exact same phenomena are easily explained by assuming a rotating earth and planetary orbits as explained by Newton/Einstein.

That alone would be enough to make most people discard the geocentric philosophies. But a select few people are actually attracted toward thinking which invalidates the very idea of trying to do science.

Only someone willing to pitch all of physics would spend the least bit of time with this crap, and guess what group is already well out on that limb? A certain group of YEC, Bible literalists who believe their religion if biology, physics, geology, paleontology, etc. are correct.

As for an electrical engineer being a particular competent expert witness, that is of course pretty silly. EvC appears to be littered with people that have similar credentials. FWIW I have an electrical engineering degree too.

I wanted to second Tangle's comment. For people who have never seen Venus or Jupiter you can view the two of them in conjunction tonight. Look in the Western sky after sunset. The two planets are near the ecliptic which is the path the sun travels across the sky. (I know. Spoken like a geocentric idiot).

You've got a couple more days after tonight if you miss the show. But tonights the best night.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by PaulK, posted 06-30-2015 3:41 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 54 (761366)
06-30-2015 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Suzanne Romano
06-30-2015 4:42 PM


Just how fast would stars have to move in order to orbit the earth in one day? Alpha Centauri is about 4.2 light years from earth. Tau Ceti is just under 12 light years away. Does your research indicate that faster than light motion in a circle is possible?

Why is it that your system leaves us with no theory of planetary motion while applying non geocentric motion allows very simply models that can make accurate predictions?

In fact, Airy’s failure is one of the strongest evidences of geocentrism to date.

The problem with this being evidence is that the result is completely consistent with Special Relativity. At best what you've done here is suggest some experiments that do not allow us to distinguish between geocentricism and reality.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Suzanne Romano, posted 06-30-2015 4:42 PM Suzanne Romano has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by JonF, posted 07-01-2015 8:27 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 54 (761414)
07-01-2015 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by JonF
07-01-2015 8:27 AM


I was expecting that answer. However the answer must also apply to Neptune which is within the solar system and would have to travel faster than the speed of light.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by JonF, posted 07-01-2015 8:27 AM JonF has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 46 of 54 (761421)
07-01-2015 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by RAZD
07-01-2015 8:42 AM


Re: GIGO
The fact is that the relativity principle obviates the heliocentric model just as much as it supports that model. ...

When a geocentrist talks about the relativity principle, they refer only to the equivalence of inertial frames and the mach principle that Eallows them to postulate that the rotational effects seen on earth are due to the rotation of the stars at great distances.

What they do not and cannot claim is that Newton's or Einstein physics including their theories of gravity can be given any credence. They must instead claim that the causes of motion in their system obey strange and inexplicable laws that don't resemble what you observe in your every day life.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by RAZD, posted 07-01-2015 8:42 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 53 of 54 (762703)
07-14-2015 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Suzanne Romano
07-14-2015 9:06 AM


Re: EINSTEIN AND MICHELSON-MORLEY
Essentially Einstein is hoisted by his own petard: In order to contradict the reasonable inferences to be drawn from Michelson's and others' experiments, he a) constructs a universe without an absolute reference frame, wherein it is impossible to detect absolute motion;

This is pathetic. If I thought that you were the author of these ideas, I'd likely use stronger language.

At the time of the Michelson-Morley experiment the idea of a geocentric universe had already dismissed. Instead people were exploring the notion that light traveled in a medium that filled all of space.

Accordingly, if we accept the possibility that the experiment was correct, there were several possibilities postulated or that could have been postulated.

1) Stationary earth!
2) No aether or other medium is needed to propagate light
3) Aether drag
4) Length contraction with aether

To pretend that there were fewer possibilities than above is to either be a fool or a liar. Of course you are free to pretend to have greater wisdom that Einstein and that you know which result to pick. The main problem for you though is that Einstein's choice of 2 leads to all of special relativity and to matter energy equivalence each of which is verifiable by experiment.

Since the time of the experiment, the speed of light and the ramifications of special relativity have been verified in situations that have nothing to do with the earth moving, and as such cannot be explained by a stationary earth. If Einstein gave little to no consideration for the idea that you now claim is correct, it was apparently for the best.

In fact, no length contraction is needed to explain Michelson-Morley-s null result. Contraction was postulated to save the aether as a viable option. But there is no aether.

b) dreams up a purely imaginary device he calls "relative coordinate system,"

Is it purely imaginary?

Can you imagine the situation where you are juggling or playing billiards on a moving train? Why do such things work? Why is it that juggling on a steady moving train work exactly the same as juggling in the train station?

Again, your wish is to substitute a scheme in which science does not work and cannot work for science that makes accurate predictions. There is no compelling reason to join you out on that limb.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Suzanne Romano, posted 07-14-2015 9:06 AM Suzanne Romano has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 54 (762710)
07-14-2015 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Percy
07-14-2015 12:16 PM


Re: EINSTEIN AND MICHELSON-MORLEY
The ideas put forward by Fitzgerald and Lorentz were based upon electromagnetism. Friction played no role.

There were a number of physical properties postulated for the aether. I have provided a list below lifted from wikipedia and attributed to Maxwell. One requirement was that the aether could not interfere with the motion of the planets (be without viscosity, i.e. frictionless. Whether or not F-L came up with the list is another thing entirely, but surely they were aware that the aether had to be some pretty strange stuff.

quote:
By this point the mechanical qualities of the aether had become more and more magical: it had to be a fluid in order to fill space, but one that was millions of times more rigid than steel in order to support the high frequencies of light waves. It also had to be massless and without viscosity, otherwise it would visibly affect the orbits of planets. Additionally it appeared it had to be completely transparent, non-dispersive, incompressible, and continuous at a very small scale. Maxwell wrote in Encyclopædia Britannica

Eventually it turned out that all light was a self propagating wave that was a product of the fact that a changing magnetic field generated a changing electric field and vice versa. No medium necessary.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Percy, posted 07-14-2015 12:16 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
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