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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
ringo
Member (Idle past 489 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 61 of 1444 (762759)
07-15-2015 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Phat
07-15-2015 5:27 AM


Re: Free Will Remix
Phat writes:
Perhaps what frustrates many is the idea that we can never really freely choose anything that altars what must be...so in that sense we don't have freedom to circumvent God.
We don't have the freedom to circumvent gravity either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Phat, posted 07-15-2015 5:27 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 62 of 1444 (762760)
07-15-2015 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Asgara
12-30-2006 12:33 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Asgara writes:
If you are created with the eventual outcome known by your creator then how can you have free will. You will do what you are scripted to do, what is already known you will do.
I will concede in essence that we have free will to do good(as defined by the Creator) or evil(as defined by the Creator).
We don't have another option to simply ignore reality(as defined by the Creator) and simply do what thou wilt.
Its this fact that frustrates many free thinkers. One cannot simply eternally ignore reality, even if that reality was created/defined by a Creator.
So in this context I will admit that free will is an illusion.
We only have free choice in the context of which choices were laid out for us.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Asgara, posted 12-30-2006 12:33 AM Asgara has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Jon, posted 07-15-2015 8:01 PM Phat has replied
 Message 64 by 1.61803, posted 07-16-2015 10:07 AM Phat has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 63 of 1444 (762777)
07-15-2015 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Phat
07-15-2015 3:27 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
We don't have another option to simply ignore reality(as defined by the Creator) and simply do what thou wilt.
No one has ever considered that.
Being able to do impossible things is not a necessary condition for the existence of free will.
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 07-15-2015 3:27 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 10:18 AM Jon has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1581 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 64 of 1444 (762785)
07-16-2015 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Phat
07-15-2015 3:27 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Hi Phat,
Phatboy writes:
We only have free choice in the context of which choices were laid out for us.
If choices are "laid out" then are they choices?
If by laid out you mean we have several choices then they are choices.
But if it is already predetermined what you will do then you are simply operating according to program.
If God exist, God most likely decided to do this study blinded,as in a clinical trial.
Think about it. If he already knew Lucifer would rebel then even Lucifer was condemned at the moment of his creation.
That just does not seem logical.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 07-15-2015 3:27 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 11:02 AM 1.61803 has replied
 Message 76 by ICANT, posted 07-16-2015 1:06 PM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 65 of 1444 (762786)
07-16-2015 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Jon
07-15-2015 8:01 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Jon writes:
No one has ever considered that.
Are you sure?
Maybe no one at EvC has...I dunno...I've never taken a poll....
I suppose we need to attempt to define what is and is not possible for humans to do/be/act/think.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Jon, posted 07-15-2015 8:01 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by ICANT, posted 07-16-2015 1:21 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 96 by Jon, posted 07-16-2015 7:30 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 66 of 1444 (762788)
07-16-2015 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by New Cat's Eye
12-28-2006 5:23 PM


God as Chaparone
Cat Sci in 2006 writes:
I believe that god is omnipotent. One way I can look at it is that even if he is omnipotent, and has the capability of doing anything, wouldn't he also have the ability to elect to not use his ability. In that way he could maintain omnipotence and 'allow' us to have free will (like, just be sitting up there in all his power but not meddling in our affairs.) A semi-deist perspective I guess.
I didn't realize that you had been here for 10 years, Cat. As you reread your old perspectives on this topic, do you have any new insights on this age old hypothetical topic?
I currently believe and think that God may well foreknow everything that is destined to happen and yet we humans have no right to call that evil since we ourselves don't know our own destinies at this point. Our best course of action, in my mind, would be to act as if God was not a chaperone on a date and just do what we really want to do anyway.
Believers could pray and unbelievers could simply carry on as they always do...because even if our destinies were foreknown and mapped out for us, we have little recourse apart from living one day at a time.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-28-2006 5:23 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 11:04 AM Phat has replied
 Message 102 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-17-2015 11:16 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 67 of 1444 (762791)
07-16-2015 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by 1.61803
07-16-2015 10:07 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
1.61803 writes:
Think about it. If he already knew Lucifer would rebel then even Lucifer was condemned at the moment of his creation.
That just does not seem logical.
Lucifer was condemned because he chose rebellion. The fact that God knew about it does not strip Lucifer of the power to make the decision.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by 1.61803, posted 07-16-2015 10:07 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by 1.61803, posted 07-16-2015 1:53 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34047
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 68 of 1444 (762792)
07-16-2015 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
07-16-2015 10:33 AM


Re: God as Chaparone
Phat writes:
I currently believe and think that God may well foreknow everything that is destined to happen and yet we humans have no right to call that evil since we ourselves don't know our own destinies at this point.
Sorry Phat but that describes an evil, vile, disgusting God unworthy of worship, respect or allegiance. Not only do we have a right to call that evil, we have a duty to oppose and decry such a monster.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 10:33 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 11:27 AM jar has replied
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 1:42 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 69 of 1444 (762793)
07-16-2015 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by jar
07-16-2015 11:04 AM


Re: God as Chaparone
Did it ever occur to you that if we indeed did feel the way you describe, our efforts at opposing the monster would become our destiny?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 11:04 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by ringo, posted 07-16-2015 11:43 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 74 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 12:14 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 489 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 70 of 1444 (762795)
07-16-2015 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Phat
07-16-2015 11:27 AM


Re: God as Chaparone
Phat writes:
Did it ever occur to you that if we indeed did feel the way you describe, our efforts at opposing the monster would become our destiny?
We can choose opposing the monster under the bed as our destiny... or... we can see whether the monster under the bed actually has any effect on our lives - and if not, we can ignore it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 11:27 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 71 of 1444 (762796)
07-16-2015 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Kader
12-29-2006 5:08 PM


Hi Kader,
Kader writes:
If its easy to grasp, it must be easy to explain ?
It is easy to grasp if you have at least a 5th grade education.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Kader, posted 12-29-2006 5:08 PM Kader has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by ringo, posted 07-16-2015 11:59 AM ICANT has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 489 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 72 of 1444 (762797)
07-16-2015 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by ICANT
07-16-2015 11:54 AM


ICANT writes:
Kader writes:
If its easy to grasp, it must be easy to explain ?
It is easy to grasp if you have at least a 5th grade education.
As a teacher of mine used to say, if you can't explain it to an eight-year-old you don't understand it. On the other hand, a lot of what an eight-year-old understands is nonsense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by ICANT, posted 07-16-2015 11:54 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by ICANT, posted 07-16-2015 1:26 PM ringo has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 73 of 1444 (762798)
07-16-2015 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Phat
12-29-2006 10:32 PM


Re: God may know that actions that are chosen
Hi Phat,
Phat writes:
He cannot have a plan as long as I have any control, so in this sense His plan is that I willfully and joyfully accept His guidance.
Why can't God have a plan for you?
I thought He died on the cross so everyone could have eternal life.
So God had a plan that everyone could be saved.
But God did not determine that everyone would follow His plan because he gave everyone the freewill to choose whether to accept the full free pardon He offered to mankind.
He also gave you the freewill to follow His plan for your life or not to follow His plan.
Could God force you to do His will? Yes, But He exercised His freewill and allowed you to choose the way you would live as well as what you would do about accepting His free full pardon He offered to you and everyone else.
Obama just offered a full pardon to 4 people who were in jail. They accepted that offer and were released from jail. Had they not accepted the offer of a pardon they would still be in jail as the Supreme Court has ruled 2 times that a pardon can not be forced upon anyone.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 12-29-2006 10:32 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34047
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 74 of 1444 (762799)
07-16-2015 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Phat
07-16-2015 11:27 AM


Re: God as Chaparone
Phat writes:
Did it ever occur to you that if we indeed did feel the way you describe, our efforts at opposing the monster would become our destiny?
Only if we actually thought there was even an outside chance such a ridiculous thing really existed otherwise our proper behavior is to just laugh at the concept and pity those who actually think such a creature worthy of belief or worship.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 11:27 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by ICANT, posted 07-16-2015 1:44 PM jar has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 75 of 1444 (762803)
07-16-2015 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Asgara
12-29-2006 10:46 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Hi Asgara,
Asgara writes:
Does he or does he not already have your life scripted out before he creates you? If he doesn't then he doesn't know what will happen.
Humans live in something we call time. Mankind took God's definition of a day found in Genesis 1:5 and divided the light portion and night portion we observe as the earth rotates in relation to the sun into 24 hours, composed of 60 minutes in each hour of which each minute is composed of 60 seconds of which each is composed of 1.000 ms of which each is composed of 1,000 microseconds of which each is composed of 1,000 ns.
God is not constrained by time as He lives in an eternal now. Which means He sees the beginning and the end and everything in between at the same time.
So God sees your birth and death at the same time as well as every decision you made during your lifetime. He just does not have anything to do with your choices.
Now if you have been born again and turned your life over to Him, He will try to influence each decision you make through the Holy Spirit which has sealed your eternal destiny when you were born again.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Asgara, posted 12-29-2006 10:46 PM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Asgara, posted 07-16-2015 2:27 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 753 by Phat, posted 02-17-2019 10:54 AM ICANT has not replied

  
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