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Author Topic:   Should there be a law against public institutions that lie for money?
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 31 of 59 (762817)
07-16-2015 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by ringo
07-16-2015 1:02 PM


ringo
Funding for the following.
African witches and Jesus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlRG9gXriVI
Jesus Camp 1of 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACyLTsH4ac
Death to Gays.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyuKLyGUHNE
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by ringo, posted 07-16-2015 1:02 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by ringo, posted 07-16-2015 1:12 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


(1)
Message 32 of 59 (762818)
07-16-2015 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by ringo
07-16-2015 1:02 PM


ringo
It should be obvious to you.
Because of the % spent on direct cash aid.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by ringo, posted 07-16-2015 1:02 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 07-16-2015 1:14 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 33 of 59 (762819)
07-16-2015 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Greatest I am
07-16-2015 1:09 PM


Greatest I am writes:
Funding for the following.
African witches and Jesus... Jesus Camp 1of 3... Death to Gays.
You're moving the goalposts. Demonstrate that cancer research is "abuse".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Greatest I am, posted 07-16-2015 1:09 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 34 of 59 (762820)
07-16-2015 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Greatest I am
07-16-2015 1:12 PM


Greatest I am writes:
It should be obvious to you.
Because of the % spent on direct cash aid.
Nothing obvious about it. Ever hear of overhead? Are you suggesting that there should be a law against fundraisers paying their phone bill?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Greatest I am, posted 07-16-2015 1:12 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Greatest I am, posted 07-26-2015 8:17 PM ringo has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 59 (762838)
07-16-2015 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Greatest I am
07-16-2015 12:43 PM


When a religion begins it's teachings with the notion that God is unknowable, unfathomable and works in mysterious ways, and then teaches reams of information on all they say they know as truth of that unknowable and unfathomable God, one can know as a fact that they are lying.
It turns out that the Constitution prevents the state from making such determinations. Further you haven't even come close to establishing that the religious believers as well as the leaders do not believe every word of what they say and claim to know.
I accept that you believe that they are liars. But I also accept that you don't care all that much about the First Amendment. So, no I don't think the law ought to be as you suggest. If you really believe your own stance is superior, perhaps you'll need to convince us with the merits rather than have the IRS do your work for you.
Again this is among the weakest of a collection of weak threads of yours. You don't even seem to be trying this time.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Greatest I am, posted 07-16-2015 12:43 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Greatest I am, posted 07-26-2015 8:22 PM NoNukes has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 36 of 59 (762845)
07-16-2015 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Greatest I am
07-15-2015 11:39 AM


laws or education?
Yes you can protect someone from being a fool.
That is what fraud laws do.
There are two problems with laws -- (1) you need a legal basis to charge people under the law, and that usually means you need people to file complaints, and (2) religious people are predominantly not just willing participants, but strongly believe it is their right to participate in the program.
To my mind a better approach would be education -- particularly in logical fallacies, which can arm people against all kinds of hokus bogus claims, not just religious ones (such as claims by purported "charity" organizations that provide little actual charity).
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Greatest I am, posted 07-15-2015 11:39 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 37 of 59 (762850)
07-16-2015 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by NoNukes
07-15-2015 4:12 PM


Probably still requires an intent to deceive if you want to do anything more than simply make the person stop (providing) the information.
Agreed, and that is one aspect that makes it difficult to apply to religions, because people believe they are dealing with truths (Truths/TRUTHS) rather than deception. They are willing participants, and would fight against any attempt to "suppress" their beliefs -- look at the "religious freedom" laws for example.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by NoNukes, posted 07-15-2015 4:12 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 38 of 59 (762862)
07-16-2015 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Greatest I am
07-16-2015 12:35 PM


From your own data:
Kids Wish Network - $22 m to their cause
Cancer Fund of America - 11.4 m
Children's Wish Foundation International - 31.5 m
Firefighters Charitable Foundation - 9 m
International Union of Police Associations - 16.2 m
Breast Cancer Relief Foundation - 19.1 m
etc.
Did you look at what solicitation techniques were used?
Did you look at the costs of staffing a phone bank?
Did you look at the print and mailing charges of a direct mail solicitation?
Did you look at the response rates generated?
Did you look at any of the expenses versus any of the response rates?
And you have the gall to call these people liars?
The format of your whole list and your conclusions based on it are the big lie in this thread.
Yes, a big lie. Your willful failure to research the solicitations, how they work, how much they cost and what results can be expected is an outrageous insolence effrontery to good charitable work. And you call them liars!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Greatest I am, posted 07-16-2015 12:35 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Greatest I am, posted 07-26-2015 8:29 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 39 of 59 (763546)
07-26-2015 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by ringo
07-16-2015 1:14 PM


ringo
No.
Above the law: America's worst charities | CNN
I am suggesting that those listed here in this link are abusing the system when only a very small % ends up where they say their donations ends up.
Lincolns for staff is hardly charity.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 07-16-2015 1:14 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by ringo, posted 07-27-2015 11:52 AM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 40 of 59 (763547)
07-26-2015 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by NoNukes
07-16-2015 2:01 PM


NoNukes
Keep to the issue and not the personal and you might get better results.
"It turns out that the Constitution prevents the state from making such determinations."
Tell that to those, like Koresh, just before the government moves in.
As to your first amendment. If it was well written in the first place, no amendments would have been required.
Your country is run by oligarch owners just as the rest of the world is.
The fact that you do not see it makes your opinions near worthless.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by NoNukes, posted 07-16-2015 2:01 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by NoNukes, posted 07-27-2015 3:36 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 41 of 59 (763548)
07-26-2015 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by RAZD
07-16-2015 2:30 PM


Re: laws or education?
RAZD
It is hard to educate properly when your religious side is large and without morals.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dtC052f9A4
The land of the brave is trying hard to become the land of the dumb.
Regards
DL

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 Message 36 by RAZD, posted 07-16-2015 2:30 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 42 of 59 (763549)
07-26-2015 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by AZPaul3
07-16-2015 7:37 PM


AZPaul3
Yes. Liars and immoral pricks.
Look at the % that actually gets to those who need it.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by AZPaul3, posted 07-16-2015 7:37 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 43 of 59 (763554)
07-26-2015 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Greatest I am
07-16-2015 12:35 PM


Link(s) for this would have been a nice thing
The source(s) more or less come out further downthread, but there should have been links right there at that message.
If you copy/paste from a webpage - Give a source and a link.
Even if it's not a copy/paste - Still give sources and links to where you got your information.
Not trying to pick on you - Others do the same. But this one was really screaming for a link.
And for what it may be worth, I support your position that a lot of charities seem to be doing a piss poor job of serving the people they are supposedly raising money for.
No reply called for. Just start doing those links.
Adminnemooseus

Or something like that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Greatest I am, posted 07-16-2015 12:35 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
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Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 44 of 59 (765214)
07-27-2015 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Adminnemooseus
07-26-2015 9:46 PM


Re: Link(s) for this would have been a nice thing
^^
Thanks for this.
Regards
DL

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 Message 43 by Adminnemooseus, posted 07-26-2015 9:46 PM Adminnemooseus has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 45 of 59 (765321)
07-27-2015 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Greatest I am
07-26-2015 8:17 PM


Greatest I am writes:
I am suggesting that those listed here in this link are abusing the system when only a very small % ends up where they say their donations ends up.
So, what's your solution? We already have laws against fraud. What specific changes do you propose?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Greatest I am, posted 07-26-2015 8:17 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Greatest I am, posted 07-27-2015 11:58 AM ringo has replied

  
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