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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
ICANT
Member (Idle past 113 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 76 of 1444 (762816)
07-16-2015 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by 1.61803
07-16-2015 10:07 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Hi 1.61803,
1.61803 writes:
If by laid out you mean we have several choices then they are choices.
Actually you only have one choice concerning where you will spend eternity as one was made for you a long time ago by the man who was formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7 which disobeyed God and ate of the fruit he had been commanded not to eat.
quote:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Other than to believe that God is (Jesus was God in human flesh) and will do what He said He will do is the only choice that matters as far as to where your eternal existence will be.
All other choices you make during your lifetime here on earth are not relevant to where you spend eternity.
Since God gave mankind freewill to make this choice for ourselves we also have the freewill to choose to do anything or believe anything we desire too.
God Bless,
Edited by ICANT, : correct quote

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by 1.61803, posted 07-16-2015 10:07 AM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 113 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 77 of 1444 (762821)
07-16-2015 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Phat
07-16-2015 10:18 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Hi Phat,
Phat writes:
Maybe no one at EvC has...I dunno...I've never taken a poll....
Think again.
You are anyone who has ever been born can make any decision except one, to do, say, or believe anything they desire too.
The one decision you can not make is a decision to spend eternity with the devil and his angels in the lake of fire. That decision has already been made for you by the man who was formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7. He broke God's command concerning eating of the fruit and disobeyed God. Due to that disobedience everyone who has ever been born or will be born was sold into slavery to the devil. So everyone belongs to the devil and will spend eternity with their father the devil unless they accept the free full pardon offered by God to mankind.
God does not make any decision for any of mankind.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 10:18 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 113 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 78 of 1444 (762822)
07-16-2015 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by ringo
07-16-2015 11:59 AM


Hi Ringo,
Ringo writes:
As a teacher of mine used to say, if you can't explain it to an eight-year-old you don't understand it.
The eight year old not being able to understand it is the reason I used a 5th grader.
An eleven year old can understand it.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by ringo, posted 07-16-2015 11:59 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by ringo, posted 07-17-2015 11:40 AM ICANT has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 79 of 1444 (762825)
07-16-2015 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by jar
07-16-2015 11:04 AM


Foreknowledge and Free Will
You and I have argued and discussed the free will concept before, but I want to bring it up again in the hope that at least from my perspective i have matured and hopefully understand it better.
If I recall correctly, your basic position on it is this:
jar writes:
If GOD is the creator, GOD creates everyone.
If GOD then chooses only some of those She creates and condemns the others, then GOD creates only to punish.
If GOD foreknows the results and still goes on to create folk, then GOD creates only to punish.
What other way could we describe a GOD who had foreknowledge?
Does having foreknowledge in and of itself imply evil IF some of the created beings end up evil?
Edited by Phat, : title

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 11:04 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 1:47 PM Phat has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 113 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 80 of 1444 (762826)
07-16-2015 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by jar
07-16-2015 12:14 PM


Re: God as Chaparone
Hi jar,
jar writes:
Only if we actually thought there was even an outside chance such a ridiculous thing really existed otherwise our proper behavior is to just laugh at the concept and pity those who actually think such a creature worthy of belief or worship.
jar I have believed in God since I was 7 years old and in 1949 at age 9 I turned my life and eternal destiny over to His keeping. I have lived to be 75 years old believing in and trusting God to take care of me here on earth and throughout all eternity. I have never missed a meal, I have never been unemployed in my lifetime until I retired and am doing more now than before I retired. I have a wonderful partner in life that God provided for me whom I met 60 years ago and have been married to for the past 58 years. God has allowed me to help many people during my lifetime teaching many a trade they could make a living at, as well as many other thing He has allowed me to do. In other words my life could not have been any better as I have enjoyed my life along with the nature God has allowed me to enjoy.
Now if I was to die today can you tell me one thing I have missed in my life that I would have had if I had not believed God and trusted Him for everything.
In other words jar if I died today and I simply went to a grave in which I would know nothing from the time I drew my last breath what have I missed out on in my life here on earth?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 12:14 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 1:48 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34063
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 81 of 1444 (762828)
07-16-2015 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Phat
07-16-2015 1:42 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Phat writes:
Does having foreknowledge in and of itself imply evil IF some of the created beings end up evil?
AbsoDamnlutely.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 1:42 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 1:51 PM jar has replied
 Message 309 by Phat, posted 08-01-2015 1:51 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34063
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 82 of 1444 (762829)
07-16-2015 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by ICANT
07-16-2015 1:44 PM


Re: God as Chaparone
Sorry but what does any of that word salad have to do with the topic or any posts in the thread or to the comment you are responding to?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by ICANT, posted 07-16-2015 1:44 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 83 of 1444 (762831)
07-16-2015 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by jar
07-16-2015 1:47 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
I still don't get it. I reread some of our old discussions, hoping to understand the basic argument. I confess im still in the dark on this one.
jar writes:
If God knows the end results then all of the responsibility for the end result lies with God.
For starters, why would GOD be responsible if somehow I chose a life of comfort and laziness and didn't give a hoot about my neighbors or my country? Many have said that GOD sees things as an eternal "now" and not in the future. Thus....if GOD created me and foreknew my idiocy, are you telling me I would have a case that this foreknowledge was evil?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 1:47 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 1:55 PM Phat has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1589 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(1)
Message 84 of 1444 (762834)
07-16-2015 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Phat
07-16-2015 11:02 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Phatboy writes:
Lucifer was condemned because he chose rebellion. The fact that God knew about it does not strip Lucifer of the power to make the decision.
He chose rebellion because he was created choosing rebellion. The choice to side with God was never a option. There are no options in the face of omnipotent- omniscience. It is a contradiction that I can not see any way to reconcile. A all knowing, all powerful God is having something happen against it's will? Does not compute.
If God exist,perhaps there is something we don't know about God.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 11:02 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34063
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 85 of 1444 (762836)
07-16-2015 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Phat
07-16-2015 1:51 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Shhesh.
Did God create you?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 1:51 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 1:59 PM jar has replied
 Message 527 by Phat, posted 09-06-2016 6:45 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 86 of 1444 (762837)
07-16-2015 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by jar
07-16-2015 1:55 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
I believe so.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 1:55 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 2:05 PM Phat has replied
 Message 97 by ICANT, posted 07-16-2015 9:12 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34063
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 87 of 1444 (762839)
07-16-2015 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Phat
07-16-2015 1:59 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Then if that God creates something that will be damned then that God is evil by definition.
It is the very act of that creation that damns such a God.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 1:59 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 2:10 PM jar has replied
 Message 540 by Phat, posted 12-06-2016 6:57 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 88 of 1444 (762840)
07-16-2015 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by jar
07-16-2015 2:05 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Are you saying that if, for example, you and I could at this moment open a Big Book that showed my future written down by GOD and that my future (in the book) turned out to be an evil one that it would thus be my duty and obligation to oppose such a plot and to oppose the author of such a plot? (if so, I am beginning to understand your perspective)
For the record, I don't believe that I am powerless at this moment in time to influence my own future. My future is based in part on the decisions that I make on a daily basis.
If we could prove that GOD foreknew our futures, would that in and of itself be a valid gripe against Him?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 2:05 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 2:20 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34063
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 89 of 1444 (762841)
07-16-2015 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Phat
07-16-2015 2:10 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Phat writes:
Are you saying that if, for example, you and I could at this moment open a Big Book that showed my future written down by GOD and that my future (in the book) turned out to be an evil one that it would thus be my duty and obligation to oppose such a plot and to oppose the author of such a plot? (if so, I am beginning to understand your perspective)
For the record, I don't believe that I am powerless at this moment in time to influence my own future. My future is based in part on the decisions that I make on a daily basis.
If we could prove that GOD foreknew our futures, would that in and of itself be a valid gripe against Him?
No, that is certainly not what I am saying but if there was such a book and you did read it you would be a fool to ever worship or respect such a God.
If God has foreknowledge and creates someone who will get damned then that God is evil.
It really is that simple. What the person does or does not do or what choices the person makes or does not make are totally irrelevant. The God is evil simply based on the act of creation.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 2:10 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 2:31 PM jar has replied
 Message 109 by Phat, posted 07-20-2015 11:25 AM jar has seen this message but not replied
 Message 543 by Phat, posted 12-06-2016 7:33 PM jar has replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2388 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 90 of 1444 (762843)
07-16-2015 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by ICANT
07-16-2015 12:41 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Thanks for replying to a nine year old post...sheesh
In your view does he or doesn't he know your outcome before he creates you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by ICANT, posted 07-16-2015 12:41 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
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