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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 91 of 1444 (762846)
07-16-2015 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by jar
07-16-2015 2:20 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
jar writes:
If God has foreknowledge and creates someone who will get damned then that God is evil.
Hypothetically, does this include "fallen" angels? If God created angels foreknowing that a third of them would rebel and actualize destiny, would it be God who was evil or would it be "evil" that sought to be like God?
I realize that this is all hypothetical silly talk based on dogmas that many Christians believe. Many believe that God personifies good and that Satan personifies bad. My question is if God created Lucifer foreknowing that Lucifer would choose to become a rival franchise, would God be responsible for the rival franchise or would Satan? (I say that this makes Isaiah 45:7 more sensible than before)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 2:20 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 2:36 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


(1)
Message 92 of 1444 (762847)
07-16-2015 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Asgara
07-16-2015 2:27 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Asgara writes:
Thanks for replying to a nine year old post...sheesh
Time sure flies. And I am sure that you are wiser now than you were then.
In your view does he or doesn't he know your outcome before he creates you?
Honestly I don't know. If He knows anything, He is being quiet about it.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Asgara, posted 07-16-2015 2:27 PM Asgara has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34063
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 93 of 1444 (762848)
07-16-2015 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Phat
07-16-2015 2:31 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Phat writes:
Hypothetically, does this include "fallen" angels? If God created angels foreknowing that a third of them would rebel and actualize destiny, would it be God who was evil or would it be "evil" that sought to be like God?
Of course it would make that God evil but there is nothing at all evil about being like God. In fact the Bible tells us that humans are just like God except they do not live forever.
The idea that trying to become God or be like God is wrong or evil is just another Christian Cult of Ignorance con job.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 2:31 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 2:40 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 94 of 1444 (762849)
07-16-2015 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by jar
07-16-2015 2:36 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
jar writes:
The idea that trying to become God or be like God is wrong or evil is just another Christian Cult of Ignorance con job.
Of course, we are exhorted to become "like Jesus".
Becoming like Jesus is one thing..."becoming Jesus" will likely get you thrown in a mental ward.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 2:36 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 2:49 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34063
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 95 of 1444 (762851)
07-16-2015 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Phat
07-16-2015 2:40 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Phat writes:
Of course, we are exhorted to become "like Jesus".
Becoming like Jesus is one thing..."becoming Jesus" will likely get you thrown in a mental ward.
You keep conflating what the Bible says and what the Christian Cult of Ignorance propaganda says.
I did not mention Jesus and of course Jesus is irrelevant when talking about the Bible saying that we are already like God except we do not live forever.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 2:40 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by ICANT, posted 07-16-2015 9:15 PM jar has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 1444 (762861)
07-16-2015 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Phat
07-16-2015 10:18 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Jon writes:
No one has ever considered that.
Are you sure?
I suppose you might have, but that's just you.
Within a traditional understanding you clearly support the notion that free will exists.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 10:18 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 113 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 97 of 1444 (762864)
07-16-2015 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Phat
07-16-2015 1:59 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Hi Phat,
Phat writes:
I believe so.
Just because you believe it does not make it so.
God created mankind male and female your parents were descendants of those people.
Your parents created you not God.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 1:59 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 113 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 98 of 1444 (762865)
07-16-2015 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by jar
07-16-2015 2:49 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Hi jar
jar writes:
except we do not live forever.
Are you sure?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 2:49 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 9:19 PM ICANT has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34063
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 99 of 1444 (762866)
07-16-2015 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by ICANT
07-16-2015 9:15 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Yes, anything born dies. Sorry but that is a fact.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by ICANT, posted 07-16-2015 9:15 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by ICANT, posted 07-17-2015 2:00 AM jar has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 113 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 100 of 1444 (762876)
07-17-2015 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by jar
07-16-2015 9:19 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Hi jar,
jar writes:
Yes, anything born dies. Sorry but that is a fact.
Enoch and Elijah haven't died yet.
Mankind was created an eternal being and will live somewhere eternally.
Those who are born again of the Spirit will live with God their father eternally all others will live with their father the devil.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 9:19 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by jar, posted 07-17-2015 8:24 AM ICANT has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34063
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 101 of 1444 (762881)
07-17-2015 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by ICANT
07-17-2015 2:00 AM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Enoch and Elijah haven't died yet.
So you claim but there is no evidence to support that assertion.
Mankind was created an eternal being and will live somewhere eternally.
Well, the first statement is most certainly false according to the Bible and again, there is no evidence to support your latter assertion.
Those who are born again of the Spirit will live with God their father eternally all others will live with their father the devil.
Sorry but that is simply utter nonsense and if it were true then it would be proof that the God you market is vile, evil and unworthy of respect or worship.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by ICANT, posted 07-17-2015 2:00 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by ICANT, posted 07-17-2015 11:17 PM jar has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 102 of 1444 (762891)
07-17-2015 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
07-16-2015 10:33 AM


Re: God as Chaparone
I didn't realize that you had been here for 10 years, Cat. As you reread your old perspectives on this topic, do you have any new insights on this age old hypothetical topic?
Not really. I still think that omnipotence is ridiculous.
I currently believe and think that God may well foreknow everything that is destined to happen and yet we humans have no right to call that evil since we ourselves don't know our own destinies at this point.
I could argue it either way or both.
Its not something that is grounded in reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 10:33 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 103 of 1444 (762893)
07-17-2015 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by ICANT
07-16-2015 1:26 PM


ICANT writes:
An eleven year old can understand it.
It's not about the understander; it's about the explainer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by ICANT, posted 07-16-2015 1:26 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by ICANT, posted 07-17-2015 11:20 PM ringo has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 113 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 104 of 1444 (762929)
07-17-2015 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by jar
07-17-2015 8:24 AM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Hi jar,
You are free to exercise your freewill and call God's
jar writes:
Sorry but that is simply utter nonsense and if it were true then it would be proof that the God you market is vile, evil and unworthy of respect or worship.
But just because you want to believe something does not make it so. You can act like Cain did all you want. Cain did not do things God's way and God did not accept Cain's way. God does not have to accept the gospel according to jar either.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by jar, posted 07-17-2015 8:24 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by jar, posted 07-18-2015 8:41 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 113 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 105 of 1444 (762930)
07-17-2015 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by ringo
07-17-2015 11:40 AM


Hi Ringo,
Ringo writes:
It's not about the understander; it's about the explainer.
I would think that for a eleven year old to understand it there would have to be someone that could explain it where the eleven year old could understand it.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by ringo, posted 07-17-2015 11:40 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by ringo, posted 07-18-2015 11:49 AM ICANT has not replied

  
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