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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 106 of 1444 (762945)
07-18-2015 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by ICANT
07-17-2015 11:17 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
So as expected from the Christian Cult of Ignorance you offer no attempt to explain or justify the vile, evil and unworthy of respect or worship God you try to market and offer only a silly veiled threat, "FUD".
That may well work for some but it certainly does not fly here.
Pitiful.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by ICANT, posted 07-17-2015 11:17 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-18-2015 9:05 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 107 of 1444 (762956)
07-18-2015 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by jar
07-18-2015 8:41 AM


"My God can beat up your God!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by jar, posted 07-18-2015 8:41 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 108 of 1444 (762963)
07-18-2015 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by ICANT
07-17-2015 11:20 PM


ICANT writes:
I would think that for a eleven year old to understand it there would have to be someone that could explain it where the eleven year old could understand it.
I'm suggesting that that explainer isn't you. You haven't succeeded in explaining anything yet, which is why I suggest that you don't really understand what you're trying to explain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by ICANT, posted 07-17-2015 11:20 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 109 of 1444 (763066)
07-20-2015 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by jar
07-16-2015 2:20 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
jar writes:
If God has foreknowledge and creates someone who will get damned then that God is evil.
What IF God created someone who had the capability of "damning" themselves? Would God still be responsible for the ones who chose damnation?
Somehow I think that we tend to confuse evil with responsibility for evil.
We may well argue that God is responsible for any and all evil based on the fact that He "created" evil. Or not.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 2:20 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by NosyNed, posted 07-20-2015 11:32 AM Phat has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9006
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 110 of 1444 (763068)
07-20-2015 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Phat
07-20-2015 11:25 AM


** FOREknowledge**
You seem to be missing the point, Phat. It is the knowing in advance that is the issue. If God knows (not guessing, not wondering but knows )what is going to happen then the "someone" has no choice.
If he/she had a choice then God wouldn't know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Phat, posted 07-20-2015 11:25 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Phat, posted 07-20-2015 11:37 AM NosyNed has replied
 Message 114 by Stile, posted 07-21-2015 9:01 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 111 of 1444 (763070)
07-20-2015 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by NosyNed
07-20-2015 11:32 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
What if GOD knew your choice at the precise moment that you made your choice? What if the communion was not a before or after communion but rather a moment-in-time communion? Your decision...made by you...known at the same moment by God...
Does that make any sense?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by NosyNed, posted 07-20-2015 11:32 AM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by NosyNed, posted 07-20-2015 11:43 AM Phat has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9006
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 112 of 1444 (763071)
07-20-2015 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Phat
07-20-2015 11:37 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
What if GOD knew your choice at the precise moment that you made your choice? What if the communion was not a before or after communion but rather a moment-in-time communion? Your decision...made by you...known at the same moment by God...
Does that make any sense?
Sure, that makes sense, but then God is not omniscient in the way most people think. And you are saying he is just like you and me, he knows it when it happens.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Phat, posted 07-20-2015 11:37 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Phat, posted 07-21-2015 7:13 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 113 of 1444 (763109)
07-21-2015 7:13 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by NosyNed
07-20-2015 11:43 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Ned writes:
that makes sense, but then God is not omniscient in the way most people think. And you are saying he is just like you and me, he knows it when it happens.
Not quite. Im saying that God knows when we freely choose Him and doesn't know when we freely choose otherwise. (depart from me I never knew you)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by NosyNed, posted 07-20-2015 11:43 AM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by ringo, posted 07-21-2015 12:03 PM Phat has replied

  
Stile
Member (Idle past 132 days)
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 114 of 1444 (763113)
07-21-2015 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by NosyNed
07-20-2015 11:32 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
NosyNed writes:
You seem to be missing the point, Phat. It is the knowing in advance that is the issue. If God knows (not guessing, not wondering but knows )what is going to happen then the "someone" has no choice.
If he/she had a choice then God wouldn't know.
I do not understand this position.
I see it as a chicken-and-egg sort of scenario.
Let's see if I can put together a simple example to pursue this idea:
We are here in 2015.
Assume that God exists, but the world is exactly as it is now (God doesn't seem to interfere, no objective evidence, no one can "prove" God...)
Let's say that in 2025, I'm going to have a choice.
The choice in front of me is to go left or right down a hiking path I'm taking a leisurely walk on.
Let's say that the fork in the road joins up again later so my final destination will be the same.
God looks ahead in time ('cause He can do that) and sees that my free-will choice will be to go left.
God never tells me about it.
God never tells anyone about it.
I don't see how that removes my free-will choice.
I mean... let's move on to the year 2030. Now I remember that I took a walk in 2025 and I took the left fork in the path.
Does my remembering and "knowing" that I went left remove my free-will from the past?
How does God's (future-)"remembering" remove my free will in the future?
I can understand how this isn't intuitive... but I don't see how it necessarily removes "free-will".
I suppose it depends on how you define free-will.
If free-will is defined as "the individual makes a choice based on their own intelligent decision" then I don't see how knowledge of that event (past or future) would change such a thing.
If free-will is defined as something like "no one knows your choice until you make it" then I can see how God's fore-knowledge obviously contradicts such a definition. But this doesn't seem like what is actually meant by "free-will" to me. I always think of free will as more of a personal choice. Simply something that you decide as you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by NosyNed, posted 07-20-2015 11:32 AM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by jar, posted 07-21-2015 9:24 AM Stile has replied
 Message 119 by Phat, posted 07-21-2015 11:00 AM Stile has replied
 Message 137 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2015 1:49 PM Stile has replied
 Message 846 by Phat, posted 03-01-2019 4:03 PM Stile has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 115 of 1444 (763114)
07-21-2015 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Stile
07-21-2015 9:01 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
It has nothing to do with what choices the person makes but rather the choice that the God made.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Stile, posted 07-21-2015 9:01 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Phat, posted 07-21-2015 10:39 AM jar has not replied
 Message 117 by Stile, posted 07-21-2015 10:50 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 116 of 1444 (763116)
07-21-2015 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by jar
07-21-2015 9:24 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
What "choice" has "the GOD" made?
Ned writes:
It is the knowing in advance that is the issue. If God knows (not guessing, not wondering but knows )what is going to happen then the "someone" has no choice.
IF God= past+present+future, God is always going to be in the moment that any decision is made. God always knows the moment. God is always in the moment. He is never going to know anything "in advance" of the moment of our choice because he is always in the moment of our choice. We choose. He is present. He knows our choice because He knows us.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by jar, posted 07-21-2015 9:24 AM jar has not replied

  
Stile
Member (Idle past 132 days)
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 117 of 1444 (763117)
07-21-2015 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by jar
07-21-2015 9:24 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
jar writes:
It has nothing to do with what choices the person makes but rather the choice that the God made.
My question is the same as Phat's.
What is the choice that God made?
Can you describe it from my example? Perhaps my example doesn't show what you're talking about?
From what I can tell, God is simply de-scribing my choice.
In 2025, I am de-scribing my choice in the past.
In 2015, God is de-scribing my choice in the future.
I agree that if God was somehow pre-scribing my choice, then I would not have free-will. But I do not see where this is happening. Could you clarify?
I understand that God "de-scribing my choice in the future" is un-intuitive. However, I do not understand why unintuitive has to equal impossible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by jar, posted 07-21-2015 9:24 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by jar, posted 07-21-2015 10:59 AM Stile has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 118 of 1444 (763118)
07-21-2015 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Stile
07-21-2015 10:50 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
But neither of you are asking "What did the God do?" and that is the issue.
The God created the human and if that God had foreknowledge that that creation would be damned regardless of whether or not the creation had freewill, then that God is vile and evil.
What the person does and whether or not it is done through freewill is totally irrelevant.
It is only the acts of the God that are relevant.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Stile, posted 07-21-2015 10:50 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Stile, posted 07-21-2015 11:45 AM jar has replied
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 07-21-2015 11:45 AM jar has not replied
 Message 560 by Phat, posted 07-10-2017 11:38 AM jar has replied
 Message 1036 by Phat, posted 08-13-2020 11:42 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 119 of 1444 (763119)
07-21-2015 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Stile
07-21-2015 9:01 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Stile writes:
I suppose it depends on how you define free-will.
If free-will is defined as "the individual makes a choice based on their own intelligent decision" then I don't see how knowledge of that event (past or future) would change such a thing.
Allow me to quote a couple of scriptures which help me to understand the problem of evil. (They may or may not help you...they may simply be Phats dogma to you... )
Rev 1:1 NIV writes:
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
God is showing something which must soon take place. Foreknowledge?
Rev 1:4 writes:
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come
Past, Present, and Future.
GOD was, Is, and Is to come. God is past, present, and future.
So we have our Christ...
Rev 1:17-18 writes:
"Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever!
And we have our AntiChrist...
Rev 17:8 writes:
The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.
Once Was implies that this creature had a beginning...was created...not eternal. This creature is not in the present moment...and yet is in the future.
God foreknows nothing and yet knows everything that happens in His eternal present. Lucifer chose to become satan...just as we choose our destiny on a moment by moment basis...and our present choice becomes our future reality. We become the decisions that we make. God is not evil ...but he beast is evil. God is not evil for allowing the beast to exist. The Beast once chose to become a beast rather than an angel. Similarly, we choose our destiny.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : spelling
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Stile, posted 07-21-2015 9:01 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Stile, posted 07-21-2015 11:51 AM Phat has replied

  
Stile
Member (Idle past 132 days)
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 120 of 1444 (763124)
07-21-2015 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by jar
07-21-2015 10:59 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
jar writes:
But neither of you are asking "What did the God do?" and that is the issue.
I completely agree. And I'm certainly asking this. That's why I asked you "what choice did God make?"
The God created the human and if that God had foreknowledge that that creation would be damned regardless of whether or not the creation had freewill, then that God is vile and evil.
Again, I completely agree.
Bringing it back to my example... if God created me with complete foreknowledge that I would take the left path in 2025, then I do not have free-will.
What I'm saying, though, is... what if that's now how God created us?
What if God created us with actual free-will?
That is, at the point of creation (of, say, the universe...), God does not know if I'm going to take the left path or the right path 15 billion years later in 2025.
Then, immediately after we were created "with free-will"... then God looks into the future and "de-scribes" my choice of picking the left path in 2015...
And my example is exactly as I described it.
That, I would say, would be free-will.
Even though today (in 2015) God has perfect foreknowledge of my choice in 2025.
Just as I will have perfect aft-knowledge of my choice once 2030 rolls around.
I guess it depends on if you think God created us with foreknowledge of what we're going to do at the time of creation or not.
I don't see why that has to be one way or the other.
And if done correctly, we certainly could have been created without foreknowledge while God still has complete foreknowledge of everything "for all time" (time being an element/dimension of our universe).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by jar, posted 07-21-2015 10:59 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by jar, posted 07-21-2015 11:51 AM Stile has replied

  
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