|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: More on Diet and Carbohydrates | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
An article in today's Business Standard describes research revealing that most obese people are likely to stay fat:
quote: The paper, Probability of an Obese Person Attaining Normal Body Weight: Cohort Study Using Electronic Health Records, actually describes the problem much better than the non-technical article:
quote: Did you catch the key sentence in the middle of that paragraph. "Weight management interventions have only small and poorly maintained effects on body weight." Ain't it the truth. If dieting and exercise are such huge failures (see first quote, 1 in 210 for men, 1 in 124 for women, of achieving a normal weight), why do we persist? One possibility is that if we didn't we'd be even fatter, but while this must be true to a degree, we also know that the body seems to pick its own weight range, and that eating more or eating less has a greatly diminished effect outside that range. Certainly you can't blame people for the failure of these strategies - when something works for almost no one, it isn't people's fault. Until doctors can point to effective weight loss strategies, say at least 50% successful, they should abandon the annual shaming that the annual physical has become. --Percy Edited by Percy, : Change author.Testing my signature.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jon Inactive Member |
If dieting and exercise are such huge failures (see first quote, 1 in 210 for men, 1 in 124 for women, of achieving a normal weight), why do we persist? Because we know the ill effects obesity has on overall health. Because being obese is not normal for almost anyone.
... we also know that the body seems to pick its own weight range, and that eating more or eating less has a greatly diminished effect outside that range. That part of that range might include 'obese' seems unsupported by the evidence showing people just like us in other societies who are astonishingly less obese than we are. There iswith very rare exceptionno physiological barriers preventing any person from maintaining a normal and healthy weight if they so choose.
Until doctors can point to effective weight loss strategies, say at least 50% successful, they should abandon the annual shaming that the annual physical has become. Well, just 'cause the doctor doesn't have a treatment up her sleeve doesn't mean she shouldn't tell you there's something wrong. The 'shame' is cultural and internal. It's the doctor's job to give medical advice. And the medical evidence is that being overweight is neither normal nor healthy for anyone. Edited by Jon, : No reason given.Love your enemies!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The weight range is a fact, though slow change is possible...perhaps the studies did not take into account the fact that its not an easy process to change ones setpoint....most people will fail...yet success is achievable slowly
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jon Inactive Member |
The weight range is a fact... Well then I trust you have some evidence for this.Love your enemies!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
perhaps not. I assumed the research had its own evidence....
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Jon writes: If dieting and exercise are such huge failures (see first quote, 1 in 210 for men, 1 in 124 for women, of achieving a normal weight), why do we persist?
Because we know the ill effects obesity has on overall health. Are you saying we should persist in trying to reduce obesity? If so, sure, everyone agrees with that. What I was actually asking is why we persist in promoting obesity amelioration strategies that have such extreme and demonstrated records of failure.
Well, just 'cause the doctor doesn't have a treatment up her sleeve doesn't mean she shouldn't tell you there's something wrong. Are you saying doctors should continue warning patients about the dangers of obesity? If so, sure, probably everyone agrees with that, too. What doctors shouldn't be doing is pretending they have effective solutions. --Percy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jon Inactive Member |
What I was actually asking is why we persist in promoting obesity amelioration strategies that have such extreme and demonstrated records of failure. What are 'obesity amelioration strategies'? When you said If dieting and exercise are such huge failures ... , why do we persist?, what exactly did you mean?
Are you saying doctors should continue warning patients about the dangers of obesity? If so, sure, probably everyone agrees with that, too. What doctors shouldn't be doing is pretending they have effective solutions. If that's the position you want to take now, then I won't disagree, but I will still disagree with the position you took in Message 166 which argued that doctors without solutions at least 50% successful should just keep their mouths shut:Until doctors can point to effective weight loss strategies, say at least 50% successful, they should abandon the annual shaming that the annual physical has become. Love your enemies!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Jon writes: What are 'obesity amelioration strategies'? Dieting and exercise.
When you said If dieting and exercise are such huge failures ... , why do we persist?, what exactly did you mean? Rephrasing without the confusing "obesity amelioration strategies" phrase, what I was actually asking is why we persist in promoting dieting and exercise when they have such extreme and demonstrated records of failure.
If that's the position you want to take now,... I apparently wasn't as clear as I hoped, but if in clarifying my meaning I'm to be accused of changing my position then you'll soon be talking to yourself.
..., but I will still disagree with the position you took in Message 166 which argued that doctors without solutions at least 50% successful should just keep their mouths shut: Until doctors can point to effective weight loss strategies, say at least 50% successful, they should abandon the annual shaming that the annual physical has become. I didn't say they should keep their mouths shut. I said they shouldn't engage in shaming, i.e., blaming the victim for the problem. --Percy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jon Inactive Member |
Rephrasing without the confusing "obesity amelioration strategies" phrase, what I was actually asking is why we persist in promoting dieting and exercise when they have such extreme and demonstrated records of failure. What alternatives do you suggest?
I said they shouldn't engage in shaming, i.e., blaming the victim for the problem. Well, the doctor didn't eat too much and exercise too little to make the patient obese. The patient did. Some medical conditions are entirely the result of the patient's actions. Obesity is one such problem. Lung damage from smoking another. As is a broken skull from bashing one's head against the wall. What else would you have the doctor do? Lie?Love your enemies!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Jon writes: Rephrasing without the confusing "obesity amelioration strategies" phrase, what I was actually asking is why we persist in promoting dieting and exercise when they have such extreme and demonstrated records of failure.
What alternatives do you suggest? I'm not suggesting alternatives. I'm suggesting that the health and medical establishments not promote alternatives with a demonstrated record of abject failure. If they don't have any effective answers then they should say so.
Some medical conditions are entirely the result of the patient's actions. Obesity is one such problem. You'd make a great GP, shaming your patients and sending them on their way with solutions that don't work so that next year they can return in the same overweight state and you can shame them again. Bravo. --Percy Edited by Percy, : Change author.Testing my signature.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jon Inactive Member |
I'm suggesting that the health and medical establishments not promote alternatives with a demonstrated record of abject failure. If they don't have any effective answers then they should say so. What alternatives? They're promoting diet and exercise. Maybe the diet and exercise approach fails most of the time, but if it's all there is then it's all there is.
You'd make a great GP, shaming your patients and sending them on their way with solutions that don't work so that next year they can return in the same overweight state and you can shame them again. Bravo. What else should they do, Percy? The best approach is for the patient to not gain the weight in the first place, but that's obviously no longer an option by the time they show up at the clinic already obese. So the doctors give them the best advice they can. Sure they don't throw in the disclaimer about probabilities, but how much harder do you think it would be to get people to take action if they doctor told them they were likely to fail no matter what? If the doctors did things the way you'd like, the success rate for diets would be 0 in 210 instead of 1 in 210.
I'm not suggesting alternatives. Then unless you're arguing that the current approach does more harm than good (and can prove it), then I really don't know what the big deal is. A solution unlikely to succeed is better than no solution at all.Love your enemies!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Jon writes: A solution unlikely to succeed is better than no solution at all. Except that the diet and exercise solution may actually be worse than no solution, since there is gathering evidence that weight cycling (the usual result for most people who try dieting and exercise) is bad for one's health (see, for example, Weight Cycling, Weight Gain, and Risk of Hypertension in Women). --Percy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Jon writes: I recall reading that its not so much the weight that is the problem so much as it is the lack of exercise. Of course extreme obesity is bad for any animal(or human) but the whole stress related effects of forced dieting may themselves cause more harm than good. What else would you have the doctor do? A good GP will tell his patients the whole truth. Realistically the typical patient may not necessarily see wight loss per se, but if they are encouraged to exercise and make better food choices in regards to --as an example---good fats over bad fats, their overall health shall improve regardless whether the scake stays the same or not.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
|
A recently published study in Cell Metabolism indicates that low-fat diets are more effective for losing weight than low-carbohydrate diets. The study was by the National Institutes of Health (Calorie for Calorie, Dietary Fat Restriction Results in More Body Fat Loss than Carbohydrate Restriction in People with Obesity). Here's a couple popular press articles about the study:
If this holds up (the study was small, only 19 subjects) then we're beginning to see a more complete but complex picture:
--Percy Edited by Percy, : Grammar.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
This would imply that replacing fat in the diet with carbohydrates would be a good weight reduction strategy, but most people's experience says this isn't true. I propose that this is because most people end up replacing fat in the diet with *refined* carbohydrates, which are very difficult to avoid in the grocery store these past few decades.
That sounds about right. Fat has more calories per ounce, so cutting them should help cut calories. Yes, it is hard to get unrefined carbohydrates, though I try. If you look hard you can find some, though it might be a mixture of refined and unrefined. Keeping the balance toward the unrefined is not too difficult. But you do have to look at labels. I also avoid artificial sweeteners. My suspicion is that they pique the appetite which can stimulate over-eating. Learning to tolerate feeling a little bit hungry also helps with weight control. I never worried too much about there being some fat. I mainly look at food labels to avoid added sugars and excessive sodium.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024