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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 121 of 1444 (763125)
07-21-2015 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by jar
07-21-2015 10:59 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
jar writes:
The God created the human and if that God had foreknowledge that that creation would be damned regardless of whether or not the creation had freewill, then that God is vile and evil.
For God, there is no such thing as foreknowledge. There is but knowledge. God cannot be before herself nor after herself. Does that make sense or would you like another helping of salad?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by jar, posted 07-21-2015 10:59 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 122 of 1444 (763128)
07-21-2015 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Stile
07-21-2015 11:45 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
What I'm saying, though, is... what if that's now how God created us?
What if God created us with actual free-will?
That is, at the point of creation (of, say, the universe...), God does not know if I'm going to take the left path or the right path 15 billion years later in 2025.
Then, immediately after we were created "with free-will"... then God looks into the future and "de-scribes" my choice of picking the left path in 2015...
And my example is exactly as I described it.
That, I would say, would be free-will.
Even though today (in 2015) God has perfect foreknowledge of my choice in 2025.
Just as I will have perfect aft-knowledge of my choice once 2030 rolls around.
I guess it depends on if you think God created us with foreknowledge of what we're going to do at the time of creation or not.
I don't see why that has to be one way or the other.
And if done correctly, we certainly could have been created without foreknowledge while God still has complete foreknowledge of everything "for all time" (time being an element/dimension of our universe).
If God does not know which path you will take until after creating you then God did not create you with foreknowledge.
It really is that simple.
Edited by jar, : hit wrong key

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Stile, posted 07-21-2015 11:45 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Stile, posted 07-21-2015 11:55 AM jar has replied
 Message 125 by Phat, posted 07-21-2015 11:59 AM jar has not replied

  
Stile
Member (Idle past 132 days)
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 123 of 1444 (763129)
07-21-2015 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Phat
07-21-2015 11:00 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:
Allow me to quote a couple of scriptures which help me to understand the problem of evil.
Unfortunately, those are not helpful to me.
What if the scriptures are incorrect?
Regardless of the reason why... how would we know?
I understand that if you believe they are correct.. then yes, you can find some comfort in them.
However, in my experiences, I do not find the Bible to be a very trustworthy source of valid information. At a minimum, it seems incomplete and vague for many things it attempts to be very specific about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Phat, posted 07-21-2015 11:00 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 07-21-2015 12:03 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member (Idle past 132 days)
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 124 of 1444 (763130)
07-21-2015 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by jar
07-21-2015 11:51 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
jar writes:
If God does not know which path you will take until after creating you then God did not create you with foreknowledge.
It really is that simple.
Right. That's what I just said.
If God created us with foreknowledge, then we have no free-will.
However, if God did not create us with foreknowledge.. and simply de-scribes our future after the point of our creation.. then we can have free-will.
Is God omnipotent-enough to create us without foreknowledge? Or does omnipotence have restrictions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by jar, posted 07-21-2015 11:51 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by jar, posted 07-21-2015 12:03 PM Stile has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 125 of 1444 (763131)
07-21-2015 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by jar
07-21-2015 11:51 AM


Knowledge and Communion
jar writes:
If God does not know which path you will take then God did not create you with foreknowledge.
God has allowed our knowledge (and our decisions) to remain ours. This brings up the issue of communion.
IF God is in communion with me this very moment, does God then "know" what I am thinking,choosing, and doing?
On a human level, none of us are mind readers. Anyone who knows or claims to know what an individual may do in the future is simply coincidental. The question...the philosophical question, however...is what God knows. My argument is that God is eternally present and thus knows whatever He knows based on communion with humanity. I am then forced to describe what communion (or co-awareness) even means.
This gets into the idea of whether we make each and every decision that we make alone...thus having sole responsibility for our destiny...or whether we are guided in some decisions.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by jar, posted 07-21-2015 11:51 AM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 126 of 1444 (763132)
07-21-2015 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Stile
07-21-2015 11:51 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Stile writes:
What if the scriptures are incorrect?
Regardless of the reason why... how would we know?
Come let us reason together.
Now what were we talking about?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Stile, posted 07-21-2015 11:51 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 127 of 1444 (763133)
07-21-2015 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Phat
07-21-2015 7:13 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:
Im saying that God knows when we freely choose Him and doesn't know when we freely choose otherwise. (depart from me I never knew you)
In Matthew 7:23 Jesus was referring specifically to false prophets but more generally to doing good works as opposed to paying lip service to religion. He used the word "know" not in the sense of knowing facts but in the sense of knowing a person. What he was saying was, "You were never my friend." It has nothing to do with omniscience. In fact, the implication was that He DID omnisciently know all along that you weren't his friend, even though you claimed you were.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Phat, posted 07-21-2015 7:13 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Phat, posted 07-21-2015 12:05 PM ringo has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 128 of 1444 (763134)
07-21-2015 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Stile
07-21-2015 11:55 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
If God created us with foreknowledge, then we have no free-will.
However, if God did not create us with foreknowledge.. and simply de-scribes our future after the point of our creation.. then we can have free-will.
Is God omnipotent-enough to create us without foreknowledge? Or does omnipotence have restrictions?
If God knows the decisions we will make before we make them then we have no freewill.
But if the God only knows those actions after the act of Creation then the God is not evil.
The only way for us to have freewill and for the God to have any foreknowledge is if the God can also be wrong.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Stile, posted 07-21-2015 11:55 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Stile, posted 07-22-2015 8:46 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 129 of 1444 (763135)
07-21-2015 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by ringo
07-21-2015 12:03 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Keep in mind I am thinking...or attempting to think and reason...on the fly. Some of my statements may need clarification or correction so please feel free to do so. So Ringo, whats your opinion on the whole foreknowledge freewill philosophy?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by ringo, posted 07-21-2015 12:03 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by ringo, posted 07-21-2015 12:20 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 130 of 1444 (763143)
07-21-2015 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Phat
07-21-2015 12:05 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:
So Ringo, whats your opinion on the whole foreknowledge freewill philosophy?
I think you can't have your cake and eat it too.
If God has foreknowledge of evil and doesn't act on it, then He's evil.
If He doesn't have foreknowledge, He may well have other limitations. In His "communion" with you, He may be exaggerating His powers.
If He holds us responsible for our free choices, He must be held responsible for His.
In summary, I don't think either "free will" or "omniscience" is a very useful concept.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Phat, posted 07-21-2015 12:05 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Phat, posted 07-21-2015 12:29 PM ringo has replied
 Message 156 by Stile, posted 07-22-2015 8:48 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 847 by Phat, posted 03-06-2019 2:30 PM ringo has replied
 Message 1035 by Phat, posted 08-13-2020 11:40 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 131 of 1444 (763144)
07-21-2015 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by ringo
07-21-2015 12:20 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
ringo writes:
If God has foreknowledge of evil and doesn't act on it, then He's evil.
What if God had knowledge of evil? Would he be responsible for knowing about it? What if at exactly this moment, another serial killer had just purchased a large cache of weapons and was heading towards the High School. Also assume that the "Prime Directive" of Star Trek is logical.
quote:
The Prime Directive, used in four of the five Star Trek-based series, prohibits Starfleet personnel from interfering with the internal development of alien civilizations. This conceptual law applies particularly to civilizations which are below a certain threshold of technological, scientific and cultural development; preventing starship crews from using their superior technology to impose their own values or ideals on them.
Should God also restrain Himself or should he supernaturally zap this threat from among us?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by ringo, posted 07-21-2015 12:20 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by ringo, posted 07-21-2015 12:45 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 132 of 1444 (763145)
07-21-2015 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Asgara
12-29-2006 11:43 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Asgara writes:
If it is all "now" to god then it still is an issue of creating knowing what is happening...now or future doesn't matter.
I think im gonna go with the idea that God chooses to let us write our own script and determine our own future. God chooses not to know, in other words.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Asgara, posted 12-29-2006 11:43 PM Asgara has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 133 of 1444 (763146)
07-21-2015 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Phat
07-21-2015 12:29 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:
What if at exactly this moment, another serial killer had just purchased a large cache of weapons and was heading towards the High School.
How can you possibly excuse a God who would not stop him?
Phat writes:
Also assume that the "Prime Directive" of Star Trek is logical.
I don't.
Phat writes:
Should God also restrain Himself or should he supernaturally zap this threat from among us?
EVERYBODY, natural or supernatural, should do as much good as possible as often as possible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Phat, posted 07-21-2015 12:29 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by jar, posted 07-21-2015 1:00 PM ringo has replied
 Message 637 by Phat, posted 01-09-2019 3:50 PM ringo has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 134 of 1444 (763147)
07-21-2015 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by ringo
07-21-2015 12:45 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Of course that position assumes that God is using the same moral system and perspective as we are and our moral system and perspective is malleable and changes with time, culture, era, society and mythos.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by ringo, posted 07-21-2015 12:45 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by ringo, posted 07-21-2015 1:08 PM jar has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 135 of 1444 (763150)
07-21-2015 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by jar
07-21-2015 1:00 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
jar writes:
Of course that position assumes that God is using the same moral system and perspective as we are and our moral system and perspective is malleable and changes with time, culture, era, society and mythos.
If there is a god with a timeless moral system, I don't see how that's relevant to us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by jar, posted 07-21-2015 1:00 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by jar, posted 07-21-2015 1:11 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
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