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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 166 of 1444 (763216)
07-22-2015 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Phat
07-22-2015 1:57 PM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
Phat writes:
Is it logical for the Creator of all seen and unseen to not know the future? Is there any particular reason that we dare imagine a God who not only does not know the future but is essentially amoral? Not personable?
Not only is it logical it is supported by the Bible. You may have heard of that book.
In some Bible stories the God character does not only not know the future but does not know the present. Also in some Bible stories the God character is certainly not personable, and in fact is aloof, apart and does not interact with any of his creations. And many if not most of the God characters are at best amoral and often down right immoral.
Phat writes:
And yet humans are supposed to correct this God when God gets something wrong!! Unbelievable!
Again, the Bible says that is what we are supposed to do.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Phat, posted 07-22-2015 1:57 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Phat, posted 07-22-2015 4:19 PM jar has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 167 of 1444 (763217)
07-22-2015 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by jar
07-22-2015 9:05 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
jar writes:
I see no freewill in your scenario unless we can decide to take the right path and God be wrong.
Like I said:
quote:
Again, I think it depends on what definition of freewill you're using.
If you're using something like "has the ability to make a decision based upon your own personal reasoning abilities" then freewill can still exist as I've described it (God had no foreknowledge at the point of creation, but can view the future as we view the past).
My scenario includes "making a decision based upon your own personal reasoning abilities."
If you have a different definition of freewill, then yes, your interpretation will be different.
But then... we're simply not talking about the same thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by jar, posted 07-22-2015 9:05 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by jar, posted 07-22-2015 3:55 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 168 of 1444 (763221)
07-22-2015 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by PaulK
07-22-2015 9:19 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
PaulK writes:
To view "the future" there must be a singular "the future" rather than a big mess of "might-be"s. And that's the point.
And I agree with you.
My point is that we don't yet have the ability to know which way is "the way it actually is."
How do you test or verify such a thing?
Without that ability, without that verification... it could be either way.
Perhaps there is a big mess of "might-be's" that are perfectly within the capabilities of an omniscient creator to know all of them... and which ones will be taken given the starting conditions.
Or maybe not.
I agree that "if not" then you're right.
I'm just saying that I don't see why your way of viewing the future must be the way things actually are.
Then again... maybe there's even a third or fourth or more ways that neither of us has had the intelligence to think up as well...
Which is what I was describing. The future must be as fixed as the past for it to be possible to view it.
Right.
Like I was saying... I hope it certainly is fixed for a lot of things... like choosing my mortgage rate, and choosing my wife, and a whole bunch of other important stuff. Maybe on some level, it's just as fixed for the unimportant stuff... I just don't care to focus on the intricacies to figure out what's causing it to be fixed on that level.
Therefore... maybe we just haven't played things out yet.
Freewill... because we're making decisions based on our own personal reasoning skills.
But fixed... because we would always make the same choice based on the same initial conditions.
Based on that setup... we could have a being that could view the future without interfering with our personal reasoning skills... our freewill.
I mean, I know that I will choose a mortgage rate of 2.5% over 3.0%.
Every time I buy a house.
Any day of the year.
Any day in the future.
Does that mean I don't have free will?
But I'm the one who made the decision to always take the lowest interest rate...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by PaulK, posted 07-22-2015 9:19 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by PaulK, posted 07-22-2015 5:16 PM Stile has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 169 of 1444 (763222)
07-22-2015 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Phat
07-22-2015 1:57 PM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
Is it logical for the Creator of all seen and unseen to not know the future? Is there any particular reason that we dare imagine a God who not only does not know the future but is essentially amoral? Not personable?
Gen 18:20-21
quote:
Then the Lord said, The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.
So much for "all-knowing", no?
And yet humans are supposed to correct this God when God gets something wrong!! Unbelievable!
Abraham goes on to plead with the Lord to spare Sodom for the sake of the righteous people that might live there and he ends up changing the Lord's mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Phat, posted 07-22-2015 1:57 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 170 of 1444 (763225)
07-22-2015 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Stile
07-22-2015 2:55 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
My scenario includes "making a decision based upon your own personal reasoning abilities."
Except you have not shown any way that could even be possible if the decision is already known. You might think it was your own personal reasoning abilities but if the outcome was already foreknown then I see no way your belief could be factual.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Stile, posted 07-22-2015 2:55 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Stile, posted 07-24-2015 9:35 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 171 of 1444 (763230)
07-22-2015 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by jar
07-22-2015 2:48 PM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
Im not talking about the character in the book...im talking about GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen...whom you supposedly believe in.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by jar, posted 07-22-2015 2:48 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by jar, posted 07-22-2015 8:48 PM Phat has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 172 of 1444 (763234)
07-22-2015 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Stile
07-22-2015 3:07 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
quote:
Perhaps there is a big mess of "might-be's" that are perfectly within the capabilities of an omniscient creator to know all of them... and which ones will be taken given the starting conditions.
Knowing which ones "will be" WOULD be knowing "the future". So no.
quote:
I'm just saying that I don't see why your way of viewing the future must be the way things actually are.
It's the only way to view "the future", because you can't view something that doesn't exist. And that's all that matters to my position.
I won't go into the free will stuff because my views are quite different from those who are making free will arguments.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Stile, posted 07-22-2015 3:07 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Stile, posted 07-24-2015 9:41 AM PaulK has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 173 of 1444 (763239)
07-22-2015 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Phat
07-22-2015 4:19 PM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
LOL
But what can a Christian God belief be based on other than the characters in the book.
But if the God is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen, why would it favor humans over pod scum?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Phat, posted 07-22-2015 4:19 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Phat, posted 07-23-2015 9:09 AM jar has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 174 of 1444 (763247)
07-23-2015 1:15 AM


Knowing and Freewill
Sometimes a person looks at a situation and imagines how it will play out.
Sometimes the person is wrong.
Sometimes they are right.
On the occasion that they are right, do we regard the actors as having no free will?
Do they have freewill only so long as absolutely no one could possibly look at the situation and imagine its outcome?

Love your enemies!

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Phat, posted 07-23-2015 1:20 AM Jon has replied
 Message 177 by PaulK, posted 07-23-2015 1:44 AM Jon has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 175 of 1444 (763248)
07-23-2015 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Jon
07-23-2015 1:15 AM


Re: Knowing and Freewill
I limit my own freewill in that IF I choose Yes I couldnt possibly have chosen No.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Jon, posted 07-23-2015 1:15 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Jon, posted 07-23-2015 1:25 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 176 of 1444 (763249)
07-23-2015 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by Phat
07-23-2015 1:20 AM


Re: Knowing and Freewill
Huh?
My questions were about a hypothetical observer.
Your answer is all about you.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Phat, posted 07-23-2015 1:20 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 177 of 1444 (763250)
07-23-2015 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Jon
07-23-2015 1:15 AM


Re: Knowing and Freewill
What an odd question. Do you think that guessing correctly is the same as knowing ? If someone wins the lottery does that mean that they knew in advance which numbers would come up ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Jon, posted 07-23-2015 1:15 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Jon, posted 07-23-2015 2:05 AM PaulK has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 178 of 1444 (763251)
07-23-2015 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by PaulK
07-23-2015 1:44 AM


Re: Knowing and Freewill
Do you think that guessing correctly is the same as knowing ?
No.
If someone wins the lottery does that mean that they knew in advance which numbers would come up ?
No.
"You will drop the ball".
If you drop the ball I am right. If you don't I am wrong.
It doesn't really matter how I arrived at my supposition, it is right or wrong based on how it accords with unfolding reality.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by PaulK, posted 07-23-2015 1:44 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by PaulK, posted 07-23-2015 2:10 AM Jon has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 179 of 1444 (763252)
07-23-2015 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Jon
07-23-2015 2:05 AM


Re: Knowing and Freewill
quote:
If someone wins the lottery does that mean that they knew in advance which numbers would come up ?
No.
Then you have the answer.
quote:
It doesn't really matter how I arrived at my supposition, it is right or wrong based on how it accords with unfolding reality.
In the same way that it doesn't matter if you rigged the lottery or just got lucky ? It isn't about being right on occasion. It's about being infallibly right. And guesses aren't infallibly right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Jon, posted 07-23-2015 2:05 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Jon, posted 07-23-2015 7:46 AM PaulK has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 180 of 1444 (763257)
07-23-2015 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by PaulK
07-23-2015 2:10 AM


Re: Knowing and Freewill
In the same way that it doesn't matter if you rigged the lottery or just got lucky ?
Rigging the lottery is not arriving at a supposition; it's creating a reality.
I don't think anyone in the debate is considering whether a problem of free will exists because God creates the future as He would like it to be. Because obviously such a universe would lack free will and there would be no debate.
It isn't about being right on occasion. It's about being infallibly right. And guesses aren't infallibly right.
The intensified version of being right on occasion is being right on all occasions, not being infallibly right.
One's guesses may be right on all occasions even if their guesses are just guesses, and having been 100% correct in all past guesses does not necessitate the next guess being accurate.
In other words, being a good guessereven a really good guesserdoes not make one incapable of error, even if one has thus far not erred.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by PaulK, posted 07-23-2015 2:10 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by PaulK, posted 07-23-2015 7:55 AM Jon has replied

  
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