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Author
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Topic: Hate Crimes? Thought Crimes? Crimethink?
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 1 of 131 (763242)
07-22-2015 11:28 PM
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Dylann Roof has been charged with 'hate crimes'. Do hate crimes punish thought? Are hate crimes an example of thought crimes? And if so, are they moral? Is hate crime a slippery slope to crimethink? Edited by Jon, : No reason given.
Love your enemies!
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Well there's a difference between charging based on intention/accident and charging based on religious, political, social, etc. view points (which is what the 'hate crime' category amounts to). In the first instance we debate how responsible a person should be for their actions based on how much in control of those actions they were. In the second instance we debate how to charge a person based on their feelings toward the victim or some perceived class to which the victim belongs.
Love your enemies!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-22-2015 11:53 PM | | Dr Adequate has replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 5 of 131 (763246)
07-23-2015 12:39 AM
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Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
07-23-2015 12:07 AM
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Re: First Some Definitions
Well, Ninety Eighty-Four was published over half a century ago, so it's hard to say anything from it is 'new'.
Love your enemies!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 3 by Phat, posted 07-23-2015 12:07 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 9 of 131 (763258)
07-23-2015 7:53 AM
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Reply to: Message 7 by Tangle
07-23-2015 3:32 AM
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That seems quite right to me, laws are intended to guide moral behaviour, they signal society's disapproval of various acts and are used to promote its values. So your society disapproves more of the murder of a black man by a racist than the murder of a white man by the same racist?
Love your enemies!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 7 by Tangle, posted 07-23-2015 3:32 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 10 of 131 (763260)
07-23-2015 8:00 AM
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Reply to: Message 8 by Larni
07-23-2015 7:38 AM
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The question wasn't whether hate crimes exist or whether Dylann Roof's thoughts and actions would meet the definition. The question was whether hate crimes are an example of thought crimes and whether it's a slippery slope to, in Dr Adequate's words, " an Orwellian nightmare".
Love your enemies!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 8 by Larni, posted 07-23-2015 7:38 AM | | Larni has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 44 by Larni, posted 07-23-2015 9:18 PM | | Jon has not replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 11 of 131 (763261)
07-23-2015 8:22 AM
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Reply to: Message 6 by NoNukes
07-23-2015 2:35 AM
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You can hate all you want, just don't go out looking for victims because you hate them, because such activity is rightly judged to be malicious and pre-mediated. But that's not what hate crime laws say is it? Being a hate crime isn't just about the crime being premeditated. Because there are already laws that deal with premeditation.
This is not completely correct. The difference between first degree murder and capital murder is not based on the amount of responsibility. It is instead based on society's view that certain classes of murder or more heinous than others. For example murders committed during commission of crime, or on a policeman, or by poisoning are examples of murders where we assign increased culpability without considering any additional elements of 'control over one's actions'. Terrorism charges are yet another example. Pointing to other things that may or may not be moral doesn't address the question of whether hate crimes are examples of thought crime and whether they are immoral.
Love your enemies!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 6 by NoNukes, posted 07-23-2015 2:35 AM | | NoNukes has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 18 by NoNukes, posted 07-23-2015 9:18 AM | | Jon has seen this message but not replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 14 of 131 (763265)
07-23-2015 8:38 AM
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Reply to: Message 12 by jar
07-23-2015 8:28 AM
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Where did "disapprove" come from? It came from Tangle's post; the one I replied to, where he said: ...if a normal crime involves an offence against a protected group such as gays or blacks AND the crime was motivated by their sexual or racial hatred of them, it then becomes an aggravating factor - ie makes it more serious. That seems quite right to me, laws are intended to guide moral behaviour, they signal society's disapproval of various acts and are used to promote its values.
Love your enemies!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 12 by jar, posted 07-23-2015 8:28 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 15 by jar, posted 07-23-2015 8:42 AM | | Jon has replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 16 of 131 (763268)
07-23-2015 8:54 AM
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Reply to: Message 13 by Tangle
07-23-2015 8:30 AM
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It seems that your society also disapproves in the same way. So I've noticed.
Love your enemies!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 13 by Tangle, posted 07-23-2015 8:30 AM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 17 of 131 (763269)
07-23-2015 9:00 AM
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Reply to: Message 15 by jar
07-23-2015 8:42 AM
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More serious and disapprove are not synonymous. No, but disapprove and disapproval are. Since you seem to be missing it, here it is again with the necessary emphasis: ...if a normal crime involves an offence against a protected group such as gays or blacks AND the crime was motivated by their sexual or racial hatred of them, it then becomes an aggravating factor - ie makes it more serious. That seems quite right to me, laws are intended to guide moral behaviour, they signal society's disapproval of various acts and are used to promote its values.
Love your enemies!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 15 by jar, posted 07-23-2015 8:42 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 19 by jar, posted 07-23-2015 9:28 AM | | Jon has replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 20 of 131 (763279)
07-23-2015 9:45 AM
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Reply to: Message 19 by jar
07-23-2015 9:28 AM
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But I still don't see where you are getting anything more than a description. What makes you think society disapproves of hate crimes more than other crimes? Tangle said his society did. So I asked him about it.
Love your enemies!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 19 by jar, posted 07-23-2015 9:28 AM | | jar has not replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 25 of 131 (763316)
07-23-2015 3:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 22 by ringo
07-23-2015 12:11 PM
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The math isn't simple but it's clear: hate has zero value as a crime but it adds to the value of a crime. And that's the messy bit. 'Hate speech' is a crime in some countries. Is 'hate crime' a slippery slope to 'hate speech' to simply 'crimethink'? I don't think whatever perceived 'benefits' society might think it's getting out of these laws is worth the risk of finding out.
Love your enemies!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 22 by ringo, posted 07-23-2015 12:11 PM | | ringo has replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 31 of 131 (763328)
07-23-2015 4:50 PM
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Reply to: Message 26 by Tangle
07-23-2015 3:49 PM
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What risk? The risk mentioned by the question in the post you replied to: Is 'hate crime' a slippery slope to 'hate speech' to simply 'crimethink'?
Love your enemies!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 26 by Tangle, posted 07-23-2015 3:49 PM | | Tangle has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 36 by Tangle, posted 07-23-2015 6:10 PM | | Jon has replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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I know this may offend your unbounded sense of self importance, but someone should probably break it to you that your statements are not a substitute for the play-out of reality.
Love your enemies!
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 38 of 131 (763342)
07-23-2015 6:55 PM
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Reply to: Message 36 by Tangle
07-23-2015 6:10 PM
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Crime is whatever the law says crime is.
Love your enemies!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 36 by Tangle, posted 07-23-2015 6:10 PM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Again, a crime is whatever the law says a crime is. If the law doesn't require that a crime be detectable, then it doesn't matter that we can't detect thoughts, they can still be crimes.
Love your enemies!
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