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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 181 of 1444 (763259)
07-23-2015 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by Jon
07-23-2015 7:46 AM


Re: Knowing and Freewill
quote:
Rigging the lottery is not arriving at a supposition; it's creating a reality.
Which demonstrates that happening to be right is not the only thing that matters.
quote:
The intensified version of being right on occasion is being right on all occasions, not being infallibly right.
Which is why guessing right every time - if it really is guessing - is not a problem for free will either.
In so far as your post is relevant it only reinforces my point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Jon, posted 07-23-2015 7:46 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Jon, posted 07-23-2015 8:29 AM PaulK has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 182 of 1444 (763263)
07-23-2015 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by PaulK
07-23-2015 7:55 AM


Re: Knowing and Freewill
Which is why guessing right every time - if it really is guessing - is not a problem for free will either.
Which was my point in Message 174.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by PaulK, posted 07-23-2015 7:55 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by PaulK, posted 07-23-2015 8:42 AM Jon has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 183 of 1444 (763267)
07-23-2015 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by Jon
07-23-2015 8:29 AM


Re: Knowing and Freewill
Really? I thought you were just asking a silly question because you couldn't be bothered to understand the arguments.
Even the subthread title says "knowing" - and guessing is not knowing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Jon, posted 07-23-2015 8:29 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Jon, posted 07-23-2015 9:07 AM PaulK has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 184 of 1444 (763270)
07-23-2015 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by PaulK
07-23-2015 8:42 AM


Re: Knowing and Freewill
Even the subthread title says "knowing" - and guessing is not knowing.
We can get there if you'd like.
Or you could continue to fling insults and waste thread space going in circles.
Take your pick.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by PaulK, posted 07-23-2015 8:42 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by PaulK, posted 07-23-2015 9:26 AM Jon has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 185 of 1444 (763271)
07-23-2015 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by jar
07-22-2015 8:48 PM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
jar writes:
But if the God is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen, why would it favor humans over pond scum?
Because God loves. Why does anyone have a favorite pet? What possible reason could you imagine would make humans "more attractive" than germs?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by jar, posted 07-22-2015 8:48 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by jar, posted 07-23-2015 9:37 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 186 of 1444 (763275)
07-23-2015 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by Jon
07-23-2015 9:07 AM


Re: Knowing and Freewill
Two points. First phrasing a point so obvious that it's hardly worth saying as a question is not a good way to get productive conversation. Second it's up to you to make progress to meeting your point. And so far I see no sign of any effort in that direction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Jon, posted 07-23-2015 9:07 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Jon, posted 07-23-2015 11:40 AM PaulK has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 187 of 1444 (763278)
07-23-2015 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Phat
07-23-2015 9:09 AM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
Phat writes:
jar writes:
But if the God is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen, why would it favor humans over pond scum?
Because God loves. Why does anyone have a favorite pet? What possible reason could you imagine would make humans "more attractive" than germs?
Why do people have a favorite pet? I've had and have lots of pets but none have been my favorite. But also I did not create the pets.
I cannot imagine any reason that would make humans "more attractive" than germs if both were my creations.
But Phat, what does any of this have to do with the topic or are we back to "God is Phat's servant" again?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Phat, posted 07-23-2015 9:09 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Jon, posted 07-23-2015 11:29 AM jar has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 188 of 1444 (763284)
07-23-2015 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by jar
07-23-2015 9:37 AM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
I cannot imagine any reason that would make humans "more attractive" than germs if both were my creations.
Are you equally proud of all your accomplishments?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by jar, posted 07-23-2015 9:37 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by jar, posted 07-23-2015 11:56 AM Jon has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 189 of 1444 (763286)
07-23-2015 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by Phat
07-22-2015 2:02 PM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
Phat writes:
His allowing us to even have free will was allowing us to even have a point of view apart from His. Perhaps He wanted us to have the freedom to disagree with Him.
Clearly not, because according to your theology if we disagree with him we go directly to hell. Once again, a choice between ice cream and a sharp stick in the eye is NOT a free choice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Phat, posted 07-22-2015 2:02 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 677 by Phat, posted 01-11-2019 3:13 AM ringo has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 190 of 1444 (763287)
07-23-2015 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by PaulK
07-23-2015 9:26 AM


Re: Knowing and Freewill
Guessing and knowing are analogous in that both are mental states and nothing else.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by PaulK, posted 07-23-2015 9:26 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by PaulK, posted 07-23-2015 11:55 AM Jon has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 191 of 1444 (763288)
07-23-2015 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by Jon
07-23-2015 11:40 AM


Re: Knowing and Freewill
Guessing and knowing (neither of which is purely a mental state) are different in ways directly relevant to the arguments of this thread. Pointing out a similarity, even if it were correct would not change that.
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Jon, posted 07-23-2015 11:40 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Jon, posted 07-23-2015 5:15 PM PaulK has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 192 of 1444 (763289)
07-23-2015 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Jon
07-23-2015 11:29 AM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
Jon writes:
Are you equally proud of all your accomplishments?
Of course. Why would I prefer one accomplishment over another?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Jon, posted 07-23-2015 11:29 AM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-23-2015 1:40 PM jar has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 193 of 1444 (763301)
07-23-2015 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by jar
07-23-2015 11:56 AM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
Why would I prefer one accomplishment over another?
Some are better than others.
I'm more proud of earning my degree than I am of showing up to work on time today.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by jar, posted 07-23-2015 11:56 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by jar, posted 07-23-2015 4:36 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 203 by ringo, posted 07-24-2015 12:00 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 194 of 1444 (763325)
07-23-2015 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by New Cat's Eye
07-23-2015 1:40 PM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
I never graded such things but if you do, that's fine.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-23-2015 1:40 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-23-2015 7:46 PM jar has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 195 of 1444 (763332)
07-23-2015 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by PaulK
07-23-2015 11:55 AM


Re: Knowing and Freewill
Guessing and knowing (neither of which is purely a mental state) are different in ways directly relevant to the arguments of this thread.
Nonsense.
The knowledge folks had of the Sun going around the Earth didn't change the fact that the Earth goes around the Sun. Neither did anyone's guesses on the matter.
The effect of both knowledge and guesses on reality is nonexistent.
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by PaulK, posted 07-23-2015 11:55 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by PaulK, posted 07-23-2015 5:31 PM Jon has replied

  
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