Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 58 (9173 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: Neptune7
Post Volume: Total: 917,573 Year: 4,830/9,624 Month: 178/427 Week: 91/85 Day: 8/20 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 196 of 1444 (763335)
07-23-2015 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Jon
07-23-2015 5:15 PM


Re: Knowing and Freewill
quote:
Nonsense.
No, just your ignorance. To count as knowledge in the full sense, in the sense used in this thread a belief has to be true.
quote:
The knowledge folks had of the Sun going around the Earth didn't change the fact that the Earth goes around the Sun.
An erroneous belief doesn't count as knowledge. And the fact that the Earth goes around the Sun is not part of anyone's mental state.
Now if you had just got down to the point straight away all this could have been cleared up much faster. Instead you chose to waste time talking about guessing when it wasn't even relevant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Jon, posted 07-23-2015 5:15 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Jon, posted 07-23-2015 7:36 PM PaulK has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 197 of 1444 (763344)
07-23-2015 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by PaulK
07-23-2015 5:31 PM


Re: Knowing and Freewill
The OP asked how foreknowledge and freewill could coexist.
Discussing the potential deficiencies of the common pop-philosophy understanding of knowledge is not an act of ignorance or error, but spot on the topic and (seeing as no one has offered a fully agreeable solution) probably not a waste of time.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by PaulK, posted 07-23-2015 5:31 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by PaulK, posted 07-24-2015 1:02 AM Jon has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 198 of 1444 (763345)
07-23-2015 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by jar
07-23-2015 4:36 PM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
I never graded such things but if you do, that's fine.
Oh don't be daft, it doesn't take any kind of grading to realize that some accomplishments are greater than others.
I remembered to put the toilet seat back down before I left for work this morning!
Oh, oh yeah, I also got a nice salary increase for a promotion that I got at work today.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by jar, posted 07-23-2015 4:36 PM jar has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 199 of 1444 (763371)
07-24-2015 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by Jon
07-23-2015 7:36 PM


Re: Knowing and Freewill
quote:
The OP asked how foreknowledge and freewill could coexist.
And obviously assumed that "knowledge" could not be wrong. And it must also be pointed out that the possibility of error has been already dealt with sufficiently.
quote:
Discussing the potential deficiencies of the common pop-philosophy understanding of knowledge is not an act of ignorance or error, but spot on the topic and (seeing as no one has offered a fully agreeable solution) probably not a waste of time.
So please explain why it's worth taking 8 posts to get to a trivial point which has already been covered - by way of an equivocation (whether based in error, ignorance or whatever).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Jon, posted 07-23-2015 7:36 PM Jon has not replied

  
Stile
Member (Idle past 120 days)
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 200 of 1444 (763388)
07-24-2015 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by jar
07-22-2015 3:55 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
jar writes:
Except you have not shown any way that could even be possible if the decision is already known.
Yes, I have.
Again... if I'm not making the choice, who is?
You might think it was your own personal reasoning abilities but if the outcome was already foreknown then I see no way your belief could be factual.
I don't see a way it could be factual either.
I mean, it includes a God... I don't think God is factual.
Being factual isn't the point, here... this entire conversation is moot if we're trying to be factual because such fanciful things aren't really defined very well.
But, if we make the assumptions that I've layed out, and carry things forward from there... then my example is "factual"-according to those listed assumptions.
If you want to change the playing field back to real-life factual, then I just have to remind you that I'm not talking about real-life. I'm just having an imaginary conversation... because that's all we can do with these concepts and the information we have about them at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by jar, posted 07-22-2015 3:55 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by jar, posted 07-24-2015 1:57 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member (Idle past 120 days)
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 201 of 1444 (763389)
07-24-2015 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by PaulK
07-22-2015 5:16 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
PaulK writes:
Knowing which ones "will be" WOULD be knowing "the future". So no.
Yes, it WOULD be knowing "the future." So yes.
Goes back to the chicken-and-egg thing I mentioned before.
You're saying that if God knows the future... then it's set, and we can't choose.
I'm saying that we choose, then the future's set, then God knows it.
You're saying God prescribes the future.
I'm saying God describes the future.
I understand it is unintuitive.
I understand I cannot show that it's possible.
I also understand that you can't show that your stance is possible. Like I'm saying, we can't "test the future" to see what way it is.
Yes, your ideas are more in tune to how we as humans are used to experiencing time.
But physics has shown us that what we find intuitive isn't always the way things are.
Until you can test and show that your ideas of knowing-the-future MUST mean that whoever knows it is prescribing it.. then the equally unevidenced idea that knowing-the-future can be done in a descriptive way is also valid.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by PaulK, posted 07-22-2015 5:16 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by PaulK, posted 07-24-2015 10:12 AM Stile has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 202 of 1444 (763390)
07-24-2015 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by Stile
07-24-2015 9:41 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
quote:
Until you can test and show that your ideas of knowing-the-future MUST mean that whoever knows it is prescribing it.. then the equally unevidenced idea that knowing-the-future can be done in a descriptive way is also valid.
That's not my idea. The idea that God prescribes the future is derived from God's role as Creator, as I have argued, not from mere foresight.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Stile, posted 07-24-2015 9:41 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Stile, posted 07-27-2015 1:15 PM PaulK has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 489 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 203 of 1444 (763401)
07-24-2015 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by New Cat's Eye
07-23-2015 1:40 PM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
Cat Sci writes:
I'm more proud of earning my degree than I am of showing up to work on time today.
From your employer's point of view, showing up for work is probably more important than your degree. He lost interest in that right after he decided to hired you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-23-2015 1:40 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-24-2015 1:13 PM ringo has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 204 of 1444 (763403)
07-24-2015 12:43 PM


The future is not there to be known
I tend to look at this in a different way. IMHO God knows all of the past as past , is aware of all that is happening and aware of what will happen if they are the inevitable results of natural law or anything that is of divine intervention. I contend that He is not aware of other future events as they are contingent on the freedom of His creatures. That future is open and unknowable, even to God.
There are cases in the OT that show God to be bargaining with mankind. In the NT we see Jesus praying in Gethsemane to about not having to go into Jerusalem knowing what happened to those who do what He was about to do, so I contend that my view is Biblical.
Again IMHO God has chosen to create a world where the future is open, with His creatures having the free will that will form the future. If God has chosen to create a world in which He is unable to know what I will have for lunch next Wednesday then that does not negate the idea that He is omnipotent. (Although I don't think that omnipotent is a particularly useful word in this context.)
Edited by GDR, : Badly worded. Memo to self -proof read

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Phat, posted 07-25-2015 2:00 AM GDR has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 205 of 1444 (763407)
07-24-2015 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by ringo
07-24-2015 12:00 PM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
From your employer's point of view, showing up for work is probably more important than your degree. He lost interest in that right after he decided to hired you.
What does that have to do with what I am proud of?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by ringo, posted 07-24-2015 12:00 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by ringo, posted 07-24-2015 1:20 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 489 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 206 of 1444 (763408)
07-24-2015 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by New Cat's Eye
07-24-2015 1:13 PM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
cat Sci writes:
What does that have to do with what I am proud of?
Maybe you need to reassess what you're proud of. Bring it up to date.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-24-2015 1:13 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34047
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 6.2


Message 207 of 1444 (763409)
07-24-2015 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Stile
07-24-2015 9:35 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Yes, I have.
Again... if I'm not making the choice, who is?
You claim you are making a choice but since the outcome is known before you make it you are not making the choice, simply doin' the inevitable.
See how easy it is for you to lie to yourself?
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Stile, posted 07-24-2015 9:35 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Phat, posted 07-26-2015 9:35 PM jar has replied
 Message 229 by Stile, posted 07-27-2015 1:24 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 208 of 1444 (763461)
07-25-2015 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by GDR
07-24-2015 12:43 PM


Re: The future is not there to be known
GDR writes:
...That future is open and unknowable, even to God.
Open Theism makes sense to me. It basically has human decision and Gods interaction as co-creation.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by GDR, posted 07-24-2015 12:43 PM GDR has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1521 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(2)
Message 209 of 1444 (763470)
07-25-2015 8:58 AM


Seems to me "knowledge of the future" is a human concept that isn't really relevant to questions about God's powers. Past, present and future are categories of human experience because we exist in time, but God exists in eternity where there are no such distinctions.
The Bible is written to accommodate our limited ability to understand these things, so God is described in human terms wherever possible, but it also points to a transcendent nature beyond our comprehension.
His knowledge is an indivisible part of His nature or being, not something he could acquire or could be without. He encompasses everything, nothing escapes Him, not the hairs of our heads, not the falling of a sparrow, not one single thing any of us does now or ever. "In Him we live and move and have our being" [Acts 17:28].
The whole question of how His omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence affect our free will is a clumsy (and in a certain sense also presumptuous) human way of thinking. God's foreknowledge doesn't affect our free will, and our asking the question makes the mistake of putting God on our level, but He doesn't exist on our level.
Isaiah 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
''
ABE: Later: Keep thinking of other scripture verses to add here:
Malachi 3:6: ...I am the LORD; I change not...
Psalm 50:21 ... thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee ...
Edited by Faith, : move sentence
Edited by Faith, : add reference and quote and fix grammar.
Edited by Faith, : added last two quotes

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by AZPaul3, posted 07-25-2015 9:51 PM Faith has replied
 Message 212 by NoNukes, posted 07-26-2015 2:32 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 219 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-27-2015 4:04 AM Faith has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 210 of 1444 (763503)
07-25-2015 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Faith
07-25-2015 8:58 AM


Nicely done, Faith. A short, clear and understandable explanation of your view.
It's all BS, of course, but you said it so well and I appreciate the skill.
Well put, Lady.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Faith, posted 07-25-2015 8:58 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Faith, posted 07-26-2015 7:44 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024