Message of the Bible

I need a little more time to respond to this post of yours - in advance - thanks.

No proble. Re-reading my post I noticed that I may have sounded too harsh. I apologize, It was late at night when I posted it. I really don't mean to break the rule of civility, and all in all am enjoying this debate.

Without getting into the specifics of what you actually wrote, I want to respond TO WHAT YOU ARE REALLY SAYING AND WHY YOU ARE SAYING IT.We have basically gone back in forth with each other while saying the same exact thing a little differently each time.Every logical concern that you have raised I have answered - the only problem is that you cannot even comprehend that the answers I supplied to be even remotely correct.Why is this ?You only see innocent people minding their own business getting killed by God. This is a common surface reaction that people with an ax to grind against the Bible make.You need to realize when attempting to understand the Bible that IT IS CLAIMED to be His word, that He commisioned, chose, and enable certain people to write down what He wanted known. The average person who haphazzardly picks up a Bible, opens it and reads "....and God commanded the children of Israel to destroy every living thing ...."
Then immediately they CANNOT accept or believe that God would order such a horible thing which makes them subjectively and erroneously conclude that God didn't say such a thing but some person changed it or made it up or what have you.Then there are people kind of like you who read such things in the Bible and have the opposite reaction."God is a sadist, a murderer, a this or a that."What we have here are two camps of people making two distinct reactions to things they read in the Bible.On one hand we have people refusing to believe the Bible is the word of God based upon horror, and the other hand we have people rejecting the God of the Bible based upon actions of Him that are percieved to be unjust.The point is that both camps of people are refusing to recognize the first and all important context from which everything that is recorded in the Bible is derived, which is that the Old and New Testaments CLAIM TO BE HIS ETERNAL WORD.Whether this is true or not IS IRRELEVANT to the point of this topic and discussion. What the point really is that I am trying to get across is that we have these two camps of people subjectively rejecting/refusing to get past things that they read in the Bible, things that on the surface so disturb them that they close their mind to what the Author is saying. The Author (God) has a message, He intentionally and deliberately and willfully and purposefully with eons of pre-meditated thought decided that what is written in the Bible IS WHAT HE WANTED TO BE KNOWN.We have one camp of people who straight out reject what is written in the Bible to be from God because they have subjectively determined that God would never say or do or be for or against certain things.
Therefore, the Bible could not be God's word.(much less eternal)Example: I remember reading some essay by some scientist who was arguing some scientific theory of his when he got on this sidebar thought pertaining to the Garden of Eden. Without any credentials in theology, and without hesitation this scientist (brilliant in his own discipline) subjectively proclaimed that the Bible could not be the word of God BECAUSE the Bible says God commanded Adam/Eve not to touch the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil - that God would want man to have knowledge therefore the creation account cannot be God's word.This scientist subjectively decided for this reason the Bible is not the words or mind of God.God didn't even remotely indicate (much less say) that He didn't want man not to have knowledge. God didn't want man to have knowledge of good and evil BECAUSE the only way to get this knowledge would be to disobey His direct order, and the reason He gave this order was to establish that He is the Boss - don't do it because I said so - period.The next reason He didn't want them to have knowledge of good and evil is because THERE IS NO POWER IN THAT KNOWLEDGE TO CHOOSE THE GOOD OVER THE EVIL WHILE SEPARATED FROM HIS HEART (Eden).To have the knowledge also meant separation from Him. God cast them out of the Garden for disobeying Him, now they are separated from Him with the knowledge AND THE ENTIRE REMAINDER OF THE RECORD OF HIS WORD IS MAN SINNING, CHOOSING EVIL OVER GOOD EVEN THOUGH THEY KNOW THE GOOD THERE IS NO POWER TO EMBRACE THE GOOD OVER THE EVIL WHILE SEPARATED FROM GOD.Nazi Germany is the best example of this eternal truth in our lifetime. The most educated nation on Earth committed the atrocity of the Holocaust.My ultimate point is this dumbshit scientist didn't even bother to think to get a qualified opinion from a theologian as to what THE MESSAGE WAS of why God didn't want them to have knowledge of good and evil.Only a talented "called" person of God can reveal what the message is.
The Bible interprets itself from other passages. This is the sole purpose of the Preacher - to explain what it means, what the message is.Now the other camp of people (where I place you) stands in harsh judgment of God with your separated from Him 21st century standards of right and wrong - good and evil. All you see is a sadistic God killing innocent people. You don't even care to know the context of the judgments you read or why they happened. You read in the Bible about this horrible event or that horrible event and you instantly judge God from your subjective perspective.You either forget or you do not care that the claim of scripture is that it is His eternal word, that He recorded all this horror and ratted on Himself.The proper attitude and stance to have concerning the things you read in the Bible is to find out what it means, WHY did God do what He did. There is a message that God is weaving through-out His book and this is the primary reason for the existence of the Book.I have laboriously argued in previous posts the context from which all the horror in the O.T. is derived but you refuse to acknowledge these truths.Nobody is innocent !Whoever gets killed in the Bible is because God decided that He was fed up with their rebellion/sin. Only a called preacher of God can take you into the specific text and explain it."Well I disagree ...God never should of ordered the death of everyone in the promise land ..."That's your subjective opinion. God decided that those people had thumbed their nose at Him long enough via their idol worship.IF God IS, then who is going to oppose Him ? Think about that.The message of the Bible is that God wants it known: Whatever He says good or bad will come to pass. This is the one common denominator woven through out the Bible.God wants that message known so that everyone understands that He is not fooling around.If the Bible records that God keeps His word to the hurt then the same is true in the good - that is what He wants known.He wants it known that He will keep His word even to His own hurt, which IS INTENDED TO EMPOWER MANKIND WITH CONFIDENCE TO ACT IN FAITH UPON A PROMISE THAT FITS YOUR CIRCUMSTANCE OF NEED AND IF YOU TRUST HIM HE WILL KEEP HIS WORD TO YOU AND BRING IT TO PASS.That in a nutshell is the message of the Bible which is the subject of this topic.Source of Theology Information : Dr.Gene Scott (Ph.D. Stanford University)

If you really beleive that the Bible is "God's Eternal Word" then you ought to know it very well.But if you did then you would know that the Bible does NOT make any claim to be God's word at all. The closest you will find are sections where the author claims to be repeating what God told him.

WT Innocent of what,disobedience? You say He gives us free will then he kills and tortures because we make a free choice. This is the action of someone who loves us? Pardon me old man but Bullshit.The Adam and Eve of the Bible were innocent since before they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they had no concept of their actions being good or evil.Just like children who do not have the concept of such things they cannot be held accountable to their actions.It is as if I as a father were to give my 2 yearold a gun,release the safety,tell them not to point the thing at their sibling or I will be angry and punish them. Then I come back after hearing the shot to find the one child dead and then punishing the child I gave the gun to.Even woese with the position of the God you worship He would have been aware of the action as it was happening.So do we in society hold children who accidently kill responsible for the act I descibed above.Of course not.And we should honor,worship and cherish the one who gave us the gun?BUllshit cubed buddy!

GE 3:1-7, 22-24 God allows Adam and Eve to be deceived by the Serpent,How is allowing someone to be deceived, HONEST?God says Thou shalt not kill but then he ,kills every living thing on the face of the earth.How is breaking you own given commandments HONEST?As a parent (God being our Parent ) , would he not set an EXAMPLE?JS 11:20 "For it was the Lord's doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle,Well, if the lord hardened their hearts is this not manipulating the out come?How is this HONESTY?Page not found » Internet InfidelsNajaco.comGenesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.The first of these that I wish to deal with is the account in Judges 20. He is particularly concerned about two verses, 18 and 23, in which Israel asked counsel of God. God first told Judah to go against Benjamin, and they were defeated. They then asked God if they should persist in their actions. God told them to continue, and again they were severely defeated. This, we are told, is proof that God lies.Does God Lie? Or encourage it?1 Kings 22:19-2319 Micaiah continued, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD : I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?'
"One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally,a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said,'I will entice him.'22 " 'By what means?' the LORD asked." 'I will go out and be alying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said." 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD .'Go and do it.'23 "So nowthe LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours.The LORD has decreed disaster for you."It says the LORD, YES?In 2 Thessalonians 2:10-11, we read, "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion,that they should believea lie."Well, that is FAIR, YES?In this passage, we read that God will send strong delusions so that people will believe a lie, yet in James we are told, "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed" (James 1:13-14).How is this being just and righteous?Willow you said,If the Bible records that God keeps His word to the hurt then the same is true in the good that is what He wants known.Please why would the ALMIGHTY creator of heaven and earth have to resort to such tactics?The creator must be above all other things, LOGICAL, These actions are unnecessary and illogical and not necessary at all, a supreme being can keep us in line without all the HEAD GAMES, manipulations and control dramas.Willow you said,
Nobody is innocent!I say YES they were innocentYou said,
Whoever gets killed in the Bible is because God decided that He was fed up with their rebellion/sin.I say what sin have innocent childen commited?You say,
Only a called preacher of God can take you into the specific text and explain it.I say,
I have heard many preachers preach the Biblical texts subject to their owm interpretation of the scripture in question, they don't even agree, why do you think there are so many denominations?I don't know how to put things in quotes yet.
gulp, I will work on that.[This message has been edited by Stormdancer, 01-05-2004]

WT.You avoided my questions at the last post. Can god make killing and rape a good thing?Also, you totaly ignored my statement:If god can do anything, whu did he have to kill old folks, babys, and have virgins raped, oops forced into marrige?Here you also state that a preacher is needed to understand the bible. Isn't the bible supposed to be straight forward? Anyone reading it should note it's divinity.You also toss the word 'subjective' around as if you are using it as a synanim for 'arvitrary'. All opinions are subjective, even yours. It follows that any opinion is subjective. So how do we overcome this hurdle? Thrugh logic and examination. So, I apply logic to the bible and I find a real strange God. Hes a god who chooses to dispense justice in the creulest of maners. He condemns the inocent constantly.How can the cannanites be thumbing their noses at him when they had never heard of him? What did the babys do? And why were the virgins to be kept?Sure, you could say it's my strange sense of 21st century morals, that tell me rape and murder are wrong. But I could counter argue, that it's your strange sense of 20th century BC morals that tell you these things are right.If I cannot use my own mind to derive gods word, from what is obviously a mythological text, why do I need a special interpreter? From cover to cover I read unbelivable stories, and skewd ethics. Why on earth should I regard this text as special?This is how the bible struck me as I read it:There see no special message in the bible, I don't think there is a common thread that ties the whole thing together. The books are disparet accounts, united in theme by similar religious folklore. It is basicaly a rulebook, and fictionalized history, of the isrealy people.The new testament is an appendicis added on by dubious sources. It is an attempt to reform the old theology. It makes the claim of unity thrugh all the books, but it's poor understanding of the OT makes even that claim dubious.Can you demonstrate the common line thrugh the bible? And answer my questions above?

You are lucky I am even responding to this post of yours.I feel you are implacably angry.All you want to repeat over and over is your low-life insult of "bullshit". Whenever this word continually appears it should at least spell out what is b.s. and why it is.The only criteria for respecting anothers view/claims/opinion is that they must be able to communicate WHAT they believe and WHY they believe it.I have certainly communicated what/why and you have not.To brand something b.s. is to insinuate that they do not know what they are talking about OR that the communicator is with pre-meditated fore-thought deceiving their listeners.You obviously vehemently disagree with me - so be it.Your constant run-of-the-mill street insults never include any depth in explaining WHY you are saying it. I could easily do the same which would make this forum a futile chat room exchange.If you want to debate with me then you must stop the b.s. of accusing me of b.s. without the strong argument to back it up.If what I am saying is b.s. then surely it must be easy for you to refute and make me look silly with the truth contained in your knowledge. Name calling is a refuge for the defeated. As much as I want to call certain people liars in these debates in other topics, to do so is revealing to everyone that you are out of arguments. (BTW I do not believe you are a liar - we are just at opposite ends of the spectrum)Now, in your defense, you did say that Adam/Eve WERE innocent BEFORE they ate the forbidden fruit. I agree, this is not in dispute.They certainly did know what God said concerning that particular tree, IF anyone wants to say they didn't then this would be easy to refute.Theologians, deducing the truths represented in the Garden events have pointed out that the real first sin in the Bible is when Eve went near the Tree. She damn well knew that that Tree was THE Tree that God said not to touch. Why would you want to even get near it ?
Because Eve/we/I always want what we can't have. But God didn't slam her for getting near it, theologians make this point and I happen to agree with it.Adam/Eve had free reign in the Garden with ONE exception. They knew God commanded them not to touch it but they chose to use the free will that they had (to touch or not to touch) to indeed touch/eat it.Now, after disobeying God, they are not innocent - they are guilty.Now I have arrived at my entire point : What you and Yaro and others, (for whatever reason) fail to understand is the SERIOUSNESS of sin/disobeying God.The inability to grasp the seriousness of sin is in itself an effect of sin. All of mankind deludes itself into concluding sin is really not sin after all.The Garden of Eden and the truths we learn from it are negated to anyone who doesn't recognize the gravity of sin and its consequences.As far as why God allowed them to be tempted by serpent/Satan, that is another subject - but He did.Look forward to your response.

You raise many issues, and your points are very pointy. I understand what you are saying very clearly but I do not agree.I want to first remind/make it clear that this exchange between you and I is being debated under the assumption that the Bible contains/is the Word of God.I am also assuming that the purpose of your arguments is to highlight what you perceive to be unjust contradictions by God. Now you can also be presenting your arguments to support a claim that the Bible does not contain/is God's Word but this argument should include a statement to that end and/or a source of objectivity that reveals what God's word should be like in place of the claim of the Bible.I declare that this present world is so far removed from the objective mind of God (as revealed in the Bible ) that debates like this support my assertion.Objective truth Number 1 : Righteousness IS whatever God does or says.IF God IS God THEN by definition whatever He does/says is righteous.I strongly urge you to think about Objective truth Number 1.Who can oppose Him IF He IS ?The only problem is that mankind wants to sit in judgement of God by using their subjective standard of HOW God must be."...well any moral fool can plainly see some of the stuff going on in the Bible is despicable !"Remember, the CLAIM is that it is His eternal word. A record that He authored and strickly controlled its content.How must God be ? Tell me Stormdancer ? Do you have an objective source ? What is the source of your belief of how God must be ?God allowed Adam/Eve to be tempted into disobeying Him by the serpent.
This is not in dispute. He did so because WE are all on trial until the day we die."...well I don't believe that..."Not believing that doesn't exempt you from being on trial - it just indicates that you are flunking.The serpent didn't deceive Adam/Eve - "where is the deception by the serpent...where is the trickery in what the serpent did...." says Dr.Scott. The point being THEY chose to do what they damn well knew was against what God had ordered. Adam/Eve just plain sinned, they did what they knew was wrong. They made excuses. Adam blamed Eve and he blamed God inadvertedly "it was the woman YOU gave me..." Eve blamed the serpent. Dr. Scott is right, where is the deception ?
Eve chose to sin - period.Nothing has changed in thousands of years. YOU Stormdancer are blaming God.God allowed the events in the Garden and if you want to debate why He allowed the entire scenario then write a post.The Bible says what it means and means what it says unless it is clearly speaking through an allegory ,or parable, or symbolic typology.When you oppose God He might get sufficently angry at you and send a deceiving spirit to make you believe something that isn't true. God included that in His book to tell everyone the way He operates.
This means what it says. He gets angry with people who mis-use their freedom which is the essence of sin.He wanted those people to believe that the false prophets were indeed speaking for Him so they would go to battle and get killed. There is no way around that - it means what it says.The people that God wanted dead were long engaged in idol worship and He decided that their time was up. At least God is honest and tells you some of His methods He uses to punish rebellion.You don't like it ?Refer back to Objective truth number 1. Who is going to put God in His place IF HE is ?Everything in the Bible must be understood in context. Text without context is error.You must understand that God didn't have to record what is recorded in the Bible. The point is that He did, He "told" on Himself....WHY ?"...well the Bible must not be His word..."Negative, I already declared my position at the start of this post and you are at least assuming it.The reason why God told on Himself is because He has ONE central message that is consistently woven through-out : Good or bad He will do what He says - period. That central truth is intended to give a person the basis to have faith that God will keep his word to them in things pertaining to His Son.IF you truly fear God, then you want to please Him, if you truly want to please God, then the Bible is clear : ONLY faith pleases God. (Hebrews 11:6).Don't believe that ?Then maybe one of those deceiving spirits is working on you.IF you have urge for God (no matter how strong or small) then He is still interested in you. Obey Hebrews 11:6 and get with God's program.Yeah there are a lot of preachers, but God gives us the choice in picking which one truly speaks for Him, but this is another subject.If I still owe you a response to the rest of your material then let me know and I will reply.As to your comments about those innocent children : I wrote an extensive thread on this precise event. Please scroll back and read it then we can debate if you want in that subject.Thank You.

How do we know then when god does what he says?God said he would destroy the world with the flood to eliminate evil. It didn't eliminate evil. God says he dosn't repent, or makes mistakes, yet he regrets in several places, and even gets angry and throws fits. He says he dosn't lie, yet he commisions liers on several occasions.I think God does whatever the heck he pleases, not what he says.WT, how do you know somebody elses god isint puting a lying spirit in all christians?Maybe Odin is pissed off nobody belives in him any more, and is messing with all our heads.Whats your proof, that a god who lies and murders when he feels like it, isn't kying to us now?The way you paint it is that he is a despot, and we can love it or suffer the consequences. Well, how do you know HE is the despot, and not some other god?Aren't you playing spiritual rulete with all the other world religions?

I owe you a couple of responses, I need a couple of days. Yaro thank you for your time and effort into this topic. I hope my next response you will find satisfying the many points in your previous posts.

I have a Question:Why did god create the tree in the first place? Being god he must have known that Adam and Eve would disobey him so why would he make the tree? Is he just looking for an excuse to murder millions?

Objective truth Number 1 : Righteousness IS whatever God does or says.Willow says,
IF God IS God THEN by definition whatever He does/says is righteous.OH REEEEAAAALLLLLY?A question Willow,What if an entity proclaiming to be your God descends from the clouds tomorrow, lets say about 12:00, and this entity said,"Willow, hearken unto me, I command you to gather all the people that believe in me like you do, gather them together from the four corners of the earth and then I want you to destroy every man women and child saving not the beasts of the fields nor the fouls of the air and Slay them everyone that believes not in me.Because I am God and I am right and no matter what I do it is OK cause I am right, period.The End............Would you be able to kill if this entity told you to?[This message has been edited by Stormdancer, 01-07-2004]

God says,Genesis 2
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.Satan says,
... Genesis 3:4,5 "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For
God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened ...and ye shall be as "gods" knowing "GOOD and "EVIL."OK, trick question, who Lied?God says,
Gen 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where [art] thou?
Wait a second here....... God says where art thou Adam?
God being all seeing and all knowing should know exactly where Adam is and what Adam has done.God says,
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: ,To know good and Evil?
Now think about it........isn't that what Satan said in the first place?[This message has been edited by Stormdancer, 01-07-2004]

God put the tree there to test his creation, he wanted to see if they would obey Him or not.God constantly tested His chosen people throughout the Old Testament, this is one reason why God sent false prophets to the Israelites, He wanted to test their loyalty.I know there are horrendous errors in logic with this explanation, but this is supported by scripture:Deuteronomy 13:3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. What we have to remember is that the Old Testament was written by people who were only interested in explaining Israel's relationship with God, logic did not come into it. The 'Fall' was an explanation for why evil exists in the world, and the deuteronomy quote is an example of self-preservation.The 'Fall of man' is a myth, a folk tale for an ancient culture, it is good literature and very interesting but not to be taken as a real event.Brian.