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Author Topic:   5 Questions...
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 91 of 107 (727)
12-13-2001 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by redstang281
12-13-2001 9:44 AM


"And without a reason to be here you must resort to the super natural."
Why? you ASSUME that something that has existed forever has to have a reason? you've said it more than once. This is your inference, not mine. You say it like its a logical step. It could have just existed forever without purpose, thereby negating any need for the supernatural. This has just as much logic as your argument, & we don't have to resort to supernatural beings that have existed forever without purpose!!!???
"So the best explanation for something by your beliefs is always scientific explanation, correct?
So that would explain how God, something that is not provable thus far by science, is not your best explanation.
But, if science says that matter can not be destroyed and can not be created, how can it's existence be scientifically explainable without redoing our whole concept of science?"
The first two paragraphs are correct.
The third is wrong in principle. Science explains via the first law pf thermodynamics (again) that matter & energy, though interchangeable cannot be created or destroyed. So, what concept of science needs redoing? Its science that makes the statement in the first place!
You seem to have a problem reconciling something existing forever with science. The Standard Big Bang never claimed to create anything, but was a massive conversion of energy into matter. The energy existed pre-big bang, thus science & the 1st law of thermodynamics are preserved.
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by redstang281, posted 12-13-2001 9:44 AM redstang281 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by redstang281, posted 12-14-2001 7:46 AM mark24 has replied

redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 107 (737)
12-14-2001 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by mark24
12-13-2001 3:31 PM


quote:
Originally posted by mark24:
"And without a reason to be here you must resort to the super natural."
Why? you ASSUME that something that has existed forever has to have a reason?

Because our reality can't just exist for no reason.
[b] [QUOTE] "So the best explanation for something by your beliefs is always scientific explanation, correct?
So that would explain how God, something that is not provable thus far by science, is not your best explanation.
[/b][/QUOTE]
I didn't say I was trying to prove God by science, only by rational thought. I may have been under the false impression that most people in here were athiest, so I was trying to help expand people's mind into not limiting their beleifs on our concept of reality.
[b] [QUOTE] But, if science says that matter can not be destroyed and can not be created, how can it's existence be scientifically explainable without redoing our whole concept of science?"
The first two paragraphs are correct.
The third is wrong in principle. Science explains via the first law pf thermodynamics (again) that matter & energy, though interchangeable cannot be created or destroyed. So, what concept of science needs redoing? Its science that makes the statement in the first place!
[/b][/QUOTE]
I think scientific was poor word choice on my part. Again, with my other post I realized that everyone may not be athiest. I was just tying to say that reality itself must have a reason to be here. But this is probably the wrong message board to address this topic on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by mark24, posted 12-13-2001 3:31 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by mark24, posted 12-14-2001 9:33 AM redstang281 has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 93 of 107 (742)
12-14-2001 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by redstang281
12-14-2001 7:46 AM


"Because our reality can't just exist for no reason."
Why?
This is just opinion stated as fact. If you're honest, you don't know either way, so why make the assumption?
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by redstang281, posted 12-14-2001 7:46 AM redstang281 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by redstang281, posted 12-14-2001 9:55 AM mark24 has replied

redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 107 (746)
12-14-2001 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by mark24
12-14-2001 9:33 AM


quote:
Originally posted by mark24:
"Because our reality can't just exist for no reason."
Why?

If there is no reason, then there is really no true connection between cause and effect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by mark24, posted 12-14-2001 9:33 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by mark24, posted 12-14-2001 11:48 AM redstang281 has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 95 of 107 (760)
12-14-2001 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by redstang281
12-14-2001 9:55 AM


quote:
Originally posted by redstang281:
If there is no reason, then there is really no true connection between cause and effect.
Precisely. If it was there forever, there wouldn't be a cause to have an effect.
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.
[This message has been edited by mark24, 12-14-2001]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by redstang281, posted 12-14-2001 9:55 AM redstang281 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by redstang281, posted 12-14-2001 2:25 PM mark24 has not replied

redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 107 (765)
12-14-2001 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by mark24
12-14-2001 11:48 AM


quote:
Originally posted by mark24:
Precisely. If it was there forever, there wouldn't be a cause to have an effect.

The point I am trying to make is hard to explain. But if you think about it for a while you will see what I mean.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by mark24, posted 12-14-2001 11:48 AM mark24 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by redstang281, posted 12-14-2001 2:27 PM redstang281 has not replied

redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 107 (766)
12-14-2001 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by redstang281
12-14-2001 2:25 PM


quote:
Originally posted by redstang281:
The point I am trying to make is hard to explain. But if you think about it for a while you will see what I mean.
Maybe this will help. The effect would be our reality exist. What is the cause?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by redstang281, posted 12-14-2001 2:25 PM redstang281 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by mark24, posted 12-14-2001 5:08 PM redstang281 has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 98 of 107 (773)
12-14-2001 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by redstang281
12-14-2001 2:27 PM


quote:
Originally posted by redstang281:
Maybe this will help. The effect would be our reality exist. What is the cause?
I could answer, but I'm not sure what you mean, I think you left a word out? I could take that two ways. Pls clarify.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by redstang281, posted 12-14-2001 2:27 PM redstang281 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by redstang281, posted 12-14-2001 11:05 PM mark24 has replied

redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 107 (775)
12-14-2001 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by mark24
12-14-2001 5:08 PM


quote:
Originally posted by mark24:
I could answer, but I'm not sure what you mean, I think you left a word out? I could take that two ways. Pls clarify.
reality is the effect of what cause?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by mark24, posted 12-14-2001 5:08 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by mark24, posted 12-15-2001 5:29 AM redstang281 has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 100 of 107 (776)
12-15-2001 5:29 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by redstang281
12-14-2001 11:05 PM


quote:
Originally posted by redstang281:
reality is the effect of what cause?

Now you've moved the goalposts from matter/energy to reality. The big bang may have had a cause, in the sense that lightning has a cause. Theres still nothing to say it wasn't naturalistic. If matter/energy existed pre-big bang, then so did reality. Perhaps not in the way you & I understand the universe. But if it existed, then there was a "reality" for it to exist in. It still doesn't need a cause, as its not an effect.
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by redstang281, posted 12-14-2001 11:05 PM redstang281 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by redstang281, posted 12-15-2001 7:41 AM mark24 has replied

redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 101 of 107 (777)
12-15-2001 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by mark24
12-15-2001 5:29 AM


It has been brought to my attention by a friend that this concept is one that you can either understand, or not. But it can not be explain to someone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by mark24, posted 12-15-2001 5:29 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by mark24, posted 12-15-2001 8:30 AM redstang281 has not replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 102 of 107 (779)
12-15-2001 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by redstang281
12-15-2001 7:41 AM


Not a very good concept, if it can't be explained!
There are two coices;
1/ There is purpose to matter/energy
2/ There is not
Neither you nor I know either way. This is NOT a concept beyond explanation.
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by redstang281, posted 12-15-2001 7:41 AM redstang281 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Percy, posted 12-15-2001 12:10 PM mark24 has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 103 of 107 (780)
12-15-2001 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by mark24
12-15-2001 8:30 AM



Redstang writes:
I think scientific was poor word choice on my part. Again, with my other post I realized that everyone may not be athiest. I was just tying to say that reality itself must have a reason to be here. But this is probably the wrong message board to address this topic on.
There's a Coffee House Forum where any topic can be discussed.
--Percy
[This message has been edited by Percipient, 12-15-2001]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by mark24, posted 12-15-2001 8:30 AM mark24 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by redstang281, posted 12-15-2001 4:28 PM Percy has replied

redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 107 (783)
12-15-2001 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Percy
12-15-2001 12:10 PM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Percipient:
[b]

Redstang writes:
I think scientific was poor word choice on my part. Again, with my other post I realized that everyone may not be athiest. I was just tying to say that reality itself must have a reason to be here. But this is probably the wrong message board to address this topic on.[/QUOTE]
There's a Coffee House Forum where any topic can be discussed.
--Percy
[This message has been edited by Percipient, 12-15-2001]
[/B]

Understood, I will stop debating the issue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Percy, posted 12-15-2001 12:10 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Percy, posted 12-15-2001 7:30 PM redstang281 has not replied
 Message 106 by mark24, posted 12-15-2001 9:23 PM redstang281 has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 105 of 107 (785)
12-15-2001 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by redstang281
12-15-2001 4:28 PM


Hi Redstang!
You misunderstand. Your discussion has been just fine, excellent in fact. I only wanted to point out that the Coffee House Forum is a good place to open a thread to address the question of whether reality must have a reason to exist.
Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by redstang281, posted 12-15-2001 4:28 PM redstang281 has not replied

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