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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1533 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 211 of 1444 (763507)
07-26-2015 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by AZPaul3
07-25-2015 9:51 PM


Thank you for the compliment. Except for the BS part of course.

This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 212 of 1444 (763527)
07-26-2015 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Faith
07-25-2015 8:58 AM


The whole question of how His omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence affect our free will is a clumsy (and in a certain sense also presumptuous) human way of thinking. God's foreknowledge doesn't affect our free will, and our asking the question makes the mistake of putting God on our level, but He doesn't exist on our level.
Stated with a little more mysticism than I would use, but I agree with you that the way many people talk about omniscience borders on being silly and in fact limiting. Much of the discussion here is of the type 'Can God make a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it' that comes from looking similarly silly about the meaning of omnipotence.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Faith, posted 07-25-2015 8:58 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 213 of 1444 (763534)
07-26-2015 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by NoNukes
07-26-2015 2:32 PM


^^^ it's the same with all these God discussions - they're all silly 'angels on pinhead' logic that can only resolve to 'well this is what I made up and now believe'. Pointless.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Phat, posted 07-26-2015 7:16 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 230 by Stile, posted 07-27-2015 1:26 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 214 of 1444 (763543)
07-26-2015 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Tangle
07-26-2015 3:48 PM


Not Everything can be explained by Evidence.
Belief is not always pointless. You are a perfect reason why I believe free will trumps omniscience. It would not be logical for God to create you foreknowing you to not believe. God loves Tangle as much as he loves Mother Theresa.
It will be a grand testimony when the final chapters of your life have been written.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Tangle, posted 07-26-2015 3:48 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Tangle, posted 07-27-2015 3:01 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 215 of 1444 (763544)
07-26-2015 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by NoNukes
07-21-2015 6:21 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
NoNukes writes:
The creation of a universe that includes the possibility of free will inevitably involves good and bad events.
The creation of the possibility of evil was a consequence of allowing free will.
NoNukes writes:
Is it God's fault that our sun is only going to last a few billion years?
Good point.
Ringo seems to think that anytime anyone (human or Deity) can do good they should do good. But the sun analogy brings up the point...is it Gods responsibility to make sure every created thing lives forever?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by NoNukes, posted 07-21-2015 6:21 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by ringo, posted 07-27-2015 11:45 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 216 of 1444 (763553)
07-26-2015 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by jar
07-24-2015 1:57 PM


Takes A Licking And Keeps On Ticking
.. if I'm not making the choice, who is?
jar writes:
You claim you are making a choice but since the outcome is known before you make it you are not making the choice, simply doin' the inevitable.
Did it ever occur to you that "the inevitable" is doing you? You once asked me to explain communion. Communion is humans freely choosing their destiny in isolated moments of time and being accepted by GOD eternally. Perhaps the reason we are accepted is because our free choice is what is best for everyone concerned.
Another way to explain this. Say that all knowledge is the result of choices in time. We make choices moment by moment throughout time.
At any given moment in time we are either in communion or out of communion. You may argue that simply by knowing the moment makes the Creator responsible and potentially evil. I would argue that the decision of each moment is ours.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by jar, posted 07-24-2015 1:57 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by jar, posted 07-26-2015 9:49 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 217 of 1444 (763556)
07-26-2015 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by Phat
07-26-2015 9:35 PM


Re: Takes A Licking And Keeps On Ticking
Phat writes:
Did it ever occur to you that "the inevitable" is doing you?
Of course not. That does not even have any meaning.
Phat writes:
You once asked me to explain communion. Communion is humans freely choosing their destiny in isolated moments of time and being accepted by GOD eternally.
And more word salad.
Phat writes:
At any given moment in time we are either in communion or out of communion. You may argue that simply by knowing the moment makes the Creator responsible and potentially evil. I would argue that the decision of each moment is ours.
Kale salad likely.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Phat, posted 07-26-2015 9:35 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Phat, posted 07-27-2015 11:54 AM jar has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 218 of 1444 (763609)
07-27-2015 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Phat
07-26-2015 7:16 PM


Re: Not Everything can be explained by Evidence.
Phat writes:
You are a perfect reason why I believe free will trumps omniscience. It would not be logical for God to create you foreknowing you to not believe. God loves Tangle as much as he loves Mother Theresa.
And this is a pefect example of making something up and then believing it because it fits a need. It's a self-deluding spiral. God does not love me or you and especially not Mother Teresa. If he exists at all, he shows no interest in any of us - that much is at least evidenced.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Phat, posted 07-26-2015 7:16 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 373 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 219 of 1444 (763629)
07-27-2015 4:04 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by Faith
07-25-2015 8:58 AM


Malachi 3:6: ...I am the LORD; I change not...
Exodus 32:14: So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Faith, posted 07-25-2015 8:58 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Faith, posted 07-27-2015 10:16 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1533 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 220 of 1444 (765236)
07-27-2015 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by Dr Adequate
07-27-2015 4:04 AM


There are no contradictions in God's word.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-27-2015 4:04 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-27-2015 10:34 AM Faith has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 373 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 221 of 1444 (765256)
07-27-2015 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by Faith
07-27-2015 10:16 AM


There are no contradictions in God's word.
But there's plenty of 'em in the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Faith, posted 07-27-2015 10:16 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Faith, posted 07-27-2015 10:42 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1533 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 222 of 1444 (765267)
07-27-2015 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by Dr Adequate
07-27-2015 10:34 AM


But there's plenty of 'em in the Bible.
Nope. Unbelievers are hopelessly confused about it, that's all, because you refuse to obey the very first requirement of understanding it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-27-2015 10:34 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Bliyaal, posted 07-27-2015 11:00 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 224 by PaulK, posted 07-27-2015 11:03 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 233 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-27-2015 4:31 PM Faith has replied

  
Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2457 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


(1)
Message 223 of 1444 (765287)
07-27-2015 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by Faith
07-27-2015 10:42 AM


because you refuse to obey the very first requirement of understanding it
In your worldview, the first requirement would be throwing your brain out of the window. There are contradictions in the multiples versions of the Bible. Think about it, blame it on the various people who wrote the texts if you want but you can't deny reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Faith, posted 07-27-2015 10:42 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


(2)
Message 224 of 1444 (765288)
07-27-2015 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by Faith
07-27-2015 10:42 AM


quote:
Nope. Unbelievers are hopelessly confused about it, that's all, because you refuse to obey the very first requirement of understanding it.
Which is, apparently: "Ignore what the stupid Bible says and worship Faith's idols instead."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Faith, posted 07-27-2015 10:42 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 225 of 1444 (765320)
07-27-2015 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Phat
07-26-2015 7:39 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:
Ringo seems to think that anytime anyone (human or Deity) can do good they should do good.
Have you heard of Jesus at all?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Phat, posted 07-26-2015 7:39 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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