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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
jar
Member
Posts: 34063
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 241 of 1444 (765372)
07-28-2015 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by Phat
07-28-2015 1:41 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Again, what does that have to do with the topic Phat?
And the RC Sproul quote at best shows his ignorance and more likely shows his carny con man tactics.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Phat, posted 07-28-2015 1:41 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Phat, posted 07-28-2015 11:42 PM jar has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 242 of 1444 (765382)
07-28-2015 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by Phat
07-28-2015 1:41 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:
Personally I think that what annoys many people is the whole idea that they can never decide to do something apart from what God knows.
No, God is perfectly welcome to go through my files.
What annoys me is the idea that God already has my place in Hell reserved, that I don't even know yet what it is that will send me there but He does - and YOU have the gall to suggest that its my choice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Phat, posted 07-28-2015 1:41 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Phat, posted 07-28-2015 11:36 PM ringo has replied
 Message 257 by Faith, posted 07-28-2015 11:50 PM ringo has replied
 Message 643 by Phat, posted 01-09-2019 4:32 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1530 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 243 of 1444 (765386)
07-28-2015 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Dr Adequate
07-28-2015 2:24 AM


Re: time and eternity
So, is it true or false to say that God changed his mind?
It's true from our perspective, in relation to our human time-bound experience, completely true: He does change in relation to our prayers, our changes of heart and so on.
But on the level of His being in eternity, no. The question about God's foreknowledge is on the level of His being in eternity, it doesn't affect us personally, which is why I keep answering as I do. There is no way His foreknowledge can change, so that He has it at one time but not another, in relation to one thing but not another, it's part of His very being. But again, it doesn't affect us at all in our everyday choices and actions.
Yes, I think I knew the Bible was God's word before I actually read it or read much of it, as soon as I knew God is real. You do have to believe it in order to understand it. I think it was Athanasius who said "I understand because I have faith."
Jesus said "repent and believe." Obey and see marvelous things unfold before your eyes.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-28-2015 2:24 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by ringo, posted 07-28-2015 1:04 PM Faith has replied
 Message 296 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-30-2015 11:36 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 244 of 1444 (765388)
07-28-2015 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Faith
07-28-2015 12:52 PM


Re: time and eternity
Faith writes:
Jesus said "repent and believe." Obey and see marvelous things unfold before your eyes.
He said (Mark 1:15), "... believe the gospel" - i.e. what He was saying. He didn't mean you'd see anything "unbelievable".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Faith, posted 07-28-2015 12:52 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Faith, posted 07-28-2015 1:10 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1530 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 245 of 1444 (765390)
07-28-2015 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by ringo
07-28-2015 1:04 PM


Re: time and eternity
Ah yes, but while the gospel can be stated in simple terms as the message of salvation by grace through faith in Christ it is usually presented by the theologians I most appreciate as encompassing the entire revelation of the Bible. In fact you can't really understand the simple terms without understanding the larger context.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by ringo, posted 07-28-2015 1:04 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by ringo, posted 07-28-2015 1:19 PM Faith has replied
 Message 250 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-28-2015 3:46 PM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 246 of 1444 (765392)
07-28-2015 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Faith
07-28-2015 1:10 PM


Re: time and eternity
Faith writes:
Ah yes, but while the gospel can be stated in simple terms as the message of salvation by grace through faith in Christ it is usually presented by the theologians I most appreciate as encompassing the entire revelation of the Bible. In fact you can't really understand the simple terms without understanding the larger context.
As usual, it boils down to what you think Jesus said as opposed to what He actually said. Believe whatever nonsense you can dream up and it retro-actively becomes what the Bible "really means".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Faith, posted 07-28-2015 1:10 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Faith, posted 07-28-2015 1:30 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1530 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 247 of 1444 (765394)
07-28-2015 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by ringo
07-28-2015 1:19 PM


Re: time and eternity
That's a lie based on what I just said. I didn't dream it up, it's the consensus of the theologians I trust. And speaking of who dreams up what, I have a suspicion that your version of the gospel wouldn't even be the one I put in simple terms. Your posts on the Bible are usually so outlandishly peculiar to you personally you shouldn't ever talk about others "making things up."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by ringo, posted 07-28-2015 1:19 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by jar, posted 07-28-2015 1:52 PM Faith has replied
 Message 268 by ringo, posted 07-29-2015 3:10 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34063
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 248 of 1444 (765396)
07-28-2015 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by Faith
07-28-2015 1:30 PM


Re: time and eternity
Faith writes:
That's a lie based on what I just said. I didn't dream it up, it's the consensus of the theologians I trust.
As folk have been saying all along Faith, you don't believe in the Bible or what the Bible actually says but rather what the "theologians" you trust claim the Bible actually says.
AbE:
You trust the fiction those theologians create like (there are no contradictions in the Bible) or (there are no errors and falsehoods in the Bible) rather than what is actually written even when what they say directly contradicts what the Bible actually says.
Edited by jar, : see AbE:

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Faith, posted 07-28-2015 1:30 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Faith, posted 07-28-2015 2:19 PM jar has replied
 Message 256 by Phat, posted 07-28-2015 11:46 PM jar has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1530 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 249 of 1444 (765397)
07-28-2015 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by jar
07-28-2015 1:52 PM


Re: time and eternity
And that's a lie too. There are things in the Bible that are hard to understand and need to be interpreted and to trust oneself alone with that responsibility is foolishness. The Bible itself says "There is safety in many counselors," and I don't trust any one of them to get it all right, I weigh them all against one another, and I could still make the wrong decision. You, however, trust in your own reading of the Bible apart from anybody else I've ever heard of, and so does ringo, and GDR seems to trust in his one favorite theologian who seems to be a law unto himself without any precedent in the history of theology whatever, and yet you all accuse me of doing what you all do.
ABE: And by the way, if the Bible is God's word no theologian is needed to know that it can't contradict itself or say anything false.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by jar, posted 07-28-2015 1:52 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by jar, posted 07-28-2015 4:32 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 264 by PaulK, posted 07-29-2015 9:30 AM Faith has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 250 of 1444 (765403)
07-28-2015 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Faith
07-28-2015 1:10 PM


Re: time and eternity
salvation by grace through faith
Grace isn't grace when there's a caveat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Faith, posted 07-28-2015 1:10 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by Faith, posted 07-28-2015 3:48 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1530 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 251 of 1444 (765404)
07-28-2015 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by New Cat's Eye
07-28-2015 3:46 PM


Re: time and eternity
Another sophist speaketh. I'll trust the Reformers over you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-28-2015 3:46 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-28-2015 4:00 PM Faith has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 252 of 1444 (765405)
07-28-2015 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Faith
07-28-2015 3:48 PM


Re: time and eternity
What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Faith, posted 07-28-2015 3:48 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34063
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 253 of 1444 (765407)
07-28-2015 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Faith
07-28-2015 2:19 PM


Re: time and eternity
Faith writes:
And that's a lie too. There are things in the Bible that are hard to understand and need to be interpreted and to trust oneself alone with that responsibility is foolishness.
More utter nonsense.
It is not a matter of interpretation or understanding, it is a matter of honesty. It is a matter of actually believing that what is written in the Bible is what is written in the Bible.
Faith writes:
And by the way, if the Bible is God's word no theologian is needed to know that it can't contradict itself or say anything false.
Yet it does often contradict itself and is filled with stuff that is factually false.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Faith, posted 07-28-2015 2:19 PM Faith has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 254 of 1444 (765424)
07-28-2015 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by ringo
07-28-2015 11:54 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Ringo writes:
What annoys me is the idea that God already has my place in Hell reserved, that I don't even know yet what it is that will send me there but He does - and YOU have the gall to suggest that its my choice.
IF Hell exists, would you ever want to go there? If the answer is "no" what makes you think that GOD is somehow going to allow you to be tricked and even end up there to begin with?
The only reservations made are the ones we make. IF you dont plan on making reservations, why even worry about ultimate foreknowledge?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by ringo, posted 07-28-2015 11:54 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by ringo, posted 07-29-2015 3:15 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 255 of 1444 (765425)
07-28-2015 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by jar
07-28-2015 9:24 AM


Carny Con Men and Arrogant Intellectuals
jar writes:
And the RC Sproul quote at best shows his ignorance and more likely shows his carny con man tactics.
Your arrogance is showing. Sproul likely knows the bible far better than you do. You have fallen for the whole idea that logic and rationality trump faith when it comes to understanding. As a result, you are unwittingly leading many people down a path that leaves them with more questions and less answers than they had before. This is fine IF GOD simply expects people to learn about the universe rather than about Him. Sadly, I believe that you are mistaken. But of course I too could be wrong.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by jar, posted 07-28-2015 9:24 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by jar, posted 07-29-2015 8:32 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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