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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 256 of 1444 (765426)
07-28-2015 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by jar
07-28-2015 1:52 PM


Re: time and eternity
Jar,addressing Faith writes:
You trust the fiction those theologians create...
As if there is a huge number of hucksters and that the true truth seekers learn more from studying "Kim" than by meditating on Jesus Christ! I am thankful that we all do have Free Will because some day there will be no excuse that GOD foreordained us to a certain fate. We will have chosen it every step of the way.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by jar, posted 07-28-2015 1:52 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by ringo, posted 07-29-2015 3:17 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1521 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 257 of 1444 (765427)
07-28-2015 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by ringo
07-28-2015 11:54 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
I just saw Phat's answer to this, which I don't seriously disagree with, but thought I'd add my own:
What annoys me is the idea that God already has my place in Hell reserved, that I don't even know yet what it is that will send me there but He does - and YOU have the gall to suggest that its my choice.
Now you are acting as if you believe YOU have foreknowledge, and know you are going to Hell? How do you know any such thing? How do you even know what YOU will choose or believe next year for that matter? If you change your mind so that you don't deserve Hell, God will change His and not send you there.
But I'm also interested in the fact that you don't know how a person deserves Hell. According to my theology which I claim is the orthodox understanding of God's revelation to us, we are all born Hell-bound because of original sin due to the Fall, but also because of the Fall we continue to add sins of our own on top of original sin throughout our lives and all that is what sends us to Hell. Milder Hells or harsher Hells, there are different levels of Hell for different degrees of sin. Those who instinctively live by God's Law don't deserve much punishment but because of the Fall, alas, even they can't escape some degree of Hell because there is nobody on earth who is free of original sin and the propensity to sin.
That's how I understand Hell. We're all born to Hell for starters but dig ourselves deeper into it by our own sins.
God, however, has given us a way out: Believe that God sent Christ to die for our sins in our place and give yourself to Him. That's it. Do that and you escape Hell.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by ringo, posted 07-28-2015 11:54 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Tangle, posted 07-29-2015 3:18 AM Faith has replied
 Message 271 by ringo, posted 07-29-2015 3:24 PM Faith has replied
 Message 282 by ICANT, posted 07-30-2015 2:40 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 258 of 1444 (765428)
07-29-2015 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by Faith
07-28-2015 11:50 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Faith writes:
God, however, has given us a way out: Believe that God sent Christ to die for our sins in our place and give yourself to Him. That's it. Do that and you escape Hell.
Which of course condemns billions to hell; all those prior to Christianity and all those after who had the temerity to be born in places that have different beliefs. All for no fault of their own.
What a load of utter bullshit. How modern people can think like this is totally beyond me, we have a long way to go before we'll put all thes primitive superstitions behind us and get on with the job of improving people's lives.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Faith, posted 07-28-2015 11:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 07-29-2015 7:46 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1521 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 259 of 1444 (765430)
07-29-2015 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Tangle
07-29-2015 3:18 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Boy are you going to be surprised.
ABE: Christ came for the entire world and most of the world has heard of Him by now. There are millions of Christians in China for instance.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Tangle, posted 07-29-2015 3:18 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Bliyaal, posted 07-29-2015 8:13 AM Faith has replied
 Message 261 by Tangle, posted 07-29-2015 8:25 AM Faith has not replied

  
Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2445 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


Message 260 of 1444 (765431)
07-29-2015 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Faith
07-29-2015 7:46 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
By now means post 19th century with the advance of telecommunications. What about the billions others mentionned in Tangle's post?
You make your deity looks cruel.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 07-29-2015 7:46 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Faith, posted 07-29-2015 9:20 AM Bliyaal has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 261 of 1444 (765432)
07-29-2015 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Faith
07-29-2015 7:46 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Faith writes:
Boy are you going to be surprised.
This is, of course, believer's smugness. We'll be exactly the same Faith - dead.
ABE: Christ came for the entire world and most of the world has heard of Him by now. There are millions of Christians in China for instance.
Right, so the billions that had never heard of him can rot in hell and the billions to come who are born into different faiths can do the same. Thank god you're not a representative Christian, those opinions are quite disgraceful.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 07-29-2015 7:46 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34047
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 262 of 1444 (765433)
07-29-2015 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by Phat
07-28-2015 11:42 PM


Re: Carny Con Men and Arrogant Intellectuals
Phat writes:
Your arrogance is showing. Sproul likely knows the bible far better than you do
Except the R.C. Sproul quote you use has absolutely nothing to do with understanding the Bible but rather Sproul's ignorance of science. Look at the quote:
quote:
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
First science does not assert that there is some force called chance.
Second, chance does have a basis in reality and can be demonstrated.
Such things are only mythologized in religion.
Phat writes:
You have fallen for the whole idea that logic and rationality trump faith when it comes to understanding. As a result, you are unwittingly leading many people down a path that leaves them with more questions and less answers than they had before.
Again, you need to stop misrepresenting my position Phat; you never seem to get it right.
There is a third element that you leave out; the trinity consists of logic, reason and reality.
And if I do leave folk with more questions then I am succeeding. You can only learn when you question the answers you have been given.
Phat writes:
This is fine IF GOD simply expects people to learn about the universe rather than about Him. Sadly, I believe that you are mistaken.
Yet you can never show how people can learn about God other than by blindly believing the utter nonsense answers they are sold.
Phat writes:
As if there is a huge number of hucksters and that the true truth seekers learn more from studying "Kim" than by meditating on Jesus Christ!
But the evidence shows that there is a huge number of hucksters and snake oil salesmen selling Jesus Christ and other products.
Phat writes:
I am thankful that we all do have Free Will because some day there will be no excuse that GOD foreordained us to a certain fate. We will have chosen it every step of the way.
So you are saying that the Calvinists are all just hucksters? You are saying that God is not omniscient?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Phat, posted 07-28-2015 11:42 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1521 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 263 of 1444 (765437)
07-29-2015 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by Bliyaal
07-29-2015 8:13 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
God chooses whom He chooses. "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." It's not for us to judge. But to venture a guess I'd guess He will have far more mercy on those who genuinely did not hear of Christ than on those who have heard the offer but scorn it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Bliyaal, posted 07-29-2015 8:13 AM Bliyaal has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 264 of 1444 (765439)
07-29-2015 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by Faith
07-28-2015 2:19 PM


Re: time and eternity
quote:
There are things in the Bible that are hard to understand and need to be interpreted and to trust oneself alone with that responsibility is foolishness.
There are two problems with this. First, sometimes your difficulties - as with Isaiah 7 - are mainly because you are looking for a way to make the text say what you want, rather than taking it as it is.
And second, where there are genuine difficulties - and these are often because the book in question was not written for modern readers, such as Ezekiel's use of Babylonian symbolism - evaluating interpretations purely on whether you like the theology is not a good way to get to the truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Faith, posted 07-28-2015 2:19 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Faith, posted 07-29-2015 10:02 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1521 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 265 of 1444 (765441)
07-29-2015 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by PaulK
07-29-2015 9:30 AM


Re: time and eternity
I do NOT judge any of it according to whether I LIKE it or not, but according to consensus of the most persuasive interpretations by the most authoritative sources over the last two millennia. You may have problems with Isaiah 7; I do not.
There are some passages in the Bible I may never understand. That doesn't bother me.
And this is completely off topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by PaulK, posted 07-29-2015 9:30 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by PaulK, posted 07-29-2015 10:23 AM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 266 of 1444 (765442)
07-29-2015 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by Faith
07-29-2015 10:02 AM


Re: time and eternity
quote:
I do NOT judge any of it according to whether I LIKE it or not, but according to consensus of the most persuasive interpretations by the most authoritative sources over the last two millennia.
No you don't.
quote:
You may have problems with Isaiah 7; I do not.
You certainly did until you found a commentary that allowed you to believe that Isaiah 7 meant what it said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Faith, posted 07-29-2015 10:02 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Faith, posted 07-29-2015 3:46 PM PaulK has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 4.8


(4)
Message 267 of 1444 (765443)
07-29-2015 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by Phat
07-28-2015 1:41 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
God doesn't annoy me at all--that would be like saying Tinkerbell really ticked me off.
But people who claim cosmic revelation for things that are the artifacts of birth place and time--i.e., their web of belief about God--and then seek to impose their beliefs on me and others in secular life, well, they annoy the crap outta me.
Of somewhat less annoyance value are those folks who claim an inerrant Bible, claim to have read it, and then smugly describe how slaughtered innocents and prosperous evil are actually the punitive will and justice of God. That's just pathetic. There's a lot of that in this thread--'We generally cannot know the mind of God, but I got the internal memo.'
But no organized religion can long thrive without blaming the victim, whether via original sin, karma or dynamically scored sin-and-pay accounts. "God doesn't bother with all that--he plays a long game" won't fill the collection plate when it passes by the sorrowing widow or parent.
It's long past time to stop sucking on the childish, sugar-tit myth of divine justice and take this world in hand. Our progress in recent centuries inflames the Taliban and American Neo-Christians alike. They all need free will to keep up the blame game--their secular seat of power--and thus ignore the fact that 99% of their lives and their enemies' lives are wholly determined by the brute facts of the world. Yet their own mean, cruel judgments are clearly the will of God--even though their own scriptures tell them they cannot possibly know that.
Free will, grace, God's will--the oldest peas in a very old game.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Phat, posted 07-28-2015 1:41 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by MrHambre, posted 07-30-2015 8:37 AM Omnivorous has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 489 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 268 of 1444 (765454)
07-29-2015 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by Faith
07-28-2015 1:30 PM


Re: time and eternity
Faith writes:
I didn't dream it up, it's the consensus of the theologians I trust.
You may have borrowed the dream but it's still your dream.
Faith writes:
Your posts on the Bible are usually so outlandishly peculiar to you personally you shouldn't ever talk about others "making things up."
The difference between you and me being that I quote the Bible to back up what I say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Faith, posted 07-28-2015 1:30 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 489 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 269 of 1444 (765455)
07-29-2015 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by Phat
07-28-2015 11:36 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:
IF Hell exists, would you ever want to go there?
I live in Saskatchewan so bad weather doesn't scare me. As for the company, I've said before that there are people supposedly in Hell that I would rather spend my time with than a lot of Christians.
Phat writes:
If the answer is "no" what makes you think that GOD is somehow going to allow you to be tricked and even end up there to begin with?
It isn't a question of Him "allowing" anything. He's the frickin' landlord.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Phat, posted 07-28-2015 11:36 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 489 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 270 of 1444 (765456)
07-29-2015 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by Phat
07-28-2015 11:46 PM


Re: time and eternity
Phat writes:
I am thankful that we all do have Free Will because some day there will be no excuse that GOD foreordained us to a certain fate.
That's what it all comes down to, isn't it? You couldn't care less about us spending eternity in hell because you can convince yourself that it's our "choice".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Phat, posted 07-28-2015 11:46 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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