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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 316 of 1444 (765635)
08-02-2015 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by jar
08-01-2015 5:44 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
jar writes:
There was someone else, I think his name was Jesus. It is recorded in a book called the Bible. Maybe you should read it sometime.
jar writes:
Shall I go on Phat?
Jesus says we should try to feed the hungry, comfort the sorrowful, cloth the naked, teach the children, heal the sick.
Granted the version you like is certainly easier and a much easier thing to sell the gullible.
Firstly jar I seldom reply to you as your primary form of argument is to insult, condescend and ridicule which doesn't lead to any meaningful discussion, nor does it make a point. To Phat's credit when you post in the way that I have quoted he doesn't reply in kind.
I'm sure Phat has spent a great deal deal of time reading the Bible, and to suggest he hasn't as he doesn't come to the same conclusion as you have doesn't contribute to the discussion.
I have no problem with you wanting to call yourself a Christian. As you have pointed out you grew up in a Christian culture, attend and are active in a Christian church. However the views that you espouse are those of a theist believing in some form of deity that wants us to do our best to be nice, and nothing more. There is nothing wrong with that and it is a good thing. (Mind you, the tone of many of your posts don't reflect those views IMHO). Your views could be shared by people of nearly any faith or by an atheist. However, it isn't Christian
If Jesus was simply a man who taught and went to his death like any other philosopher or prophet, and was not resurrected as the Gospels tell us, and as Paul confirms, then there is no basis for the Christian church. If Jesus was not resurrected then he was not only mistaken about a great deal but was highly delusional. Why would you want to follow a man like that?
Why don't you call yourself a Gandhian. Gandhi espoused the same views as Jesus without making any of the claims about himself in the manner that Jesus did. You could even call yourself a moderate Muslim if you wanted.
I am in agreement that the Bible was written by men and we have to interpret it as such. However, it is clear the the NT authors were in agreement that Jesus rose in a re-embodied form and that they were followers of Jesus based on that.
I believe as did the NT authors that it actually happened that way and I even contend that there is good historical evidence to believe that way. It can't be proven, but that belief is foundational to the Christian faith.
Edited by GDR, : stucture

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by jar, posted 08-01-2015 5:44 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by jar, posted 08-03-2015 9:03 AM GDR has replied
 Message 335 by ringo, posted 08-04-2015 11:54 AM GDR has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 317 of 1444 (765638)
08-03-2015 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 315 by jar
08-01-2015 5:44 PM


GOD as Knowable or Unknowable
jar writes:
Shall I go on Phat?
For those following this topic, jar and I have had similar discussions many years ago. Here is one from 2007 in the topic, Evangelical Support group
Whats also interesting is that GDR was offended by jar back then also...and tried to defend me.
I will continue this discussion at the Evangelical Support Group topic.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by jar, posted 08-01-2015 5:44 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 318 of 1444 (765644)
08-03-2015 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 316 by GDR
08-02-2015 9:31 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
GDR writes:
Why don't you call yourself a Gandhian. Gandhi espoused the same views as Jesus without making any of the claims about himself in the manner that Jesus did. You could even call yourself a moderate Muslim if you wanted.
But I am not a Gandhian or a moderate Muslim and to call myself either would simply be a lie.
I have no problem with you wanting to call yourself a Christian. As you have pointed out you grew up in a Christian culture, attend and are active in a Christian church. However the views that you espouse are those of a theist believing in some form of deity that wants us to do our best to be nice, and nothing more. There is nothing wrong with that and it is a good thing. (Mind you, the tone of many of your posts don't reflect those views IMHO). Your views could be shared by people of nearly any faith or by an atheist. However, it isn't Christian
But I have never said there was nothing more; what I have said is that Jesus said the important job for us is to try to do. That is paramount.
Most of the other things as you point out were creations of those who were creating and marketing a new product; Christianity.
GDR writes:
I am in agreement that the Bible was written by men and we have to interpret it as such. However, it is clear the the NT authors were in agreement that Jesus rose in a re-embodied form and that they were followers of Jesus based on that.
I believe as did the NT authors that it actually happened that way and I even contend that there is good historical evidence to believe that way. It can't be proven, but that belief is foundational to the Christian faith.
And I have never disputed that the folk creating Christianity (at least those who were creating the surviving chapters of Club Christian) believed those things. But those things are not what Jesus taught or Jesus mission or Jesus ministry.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by GDR, posted 08-02-2015 9:31 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by GDR, posted 08-03-2015 12:16 PM jar has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 319 of 1444 (765647)
08-03-2015 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by jar
08-03-2015 9:03 AM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
jar writes:
But I am not a Gandhian or a moderate Muslim and to call myself either would simply be a lie.
Sure, but those that are could hold the same beliefs that you do. Muslims view Jesus as a prophet and Gandhi says that he admired the teachings of Jesus. That doesn't make them Christians.
jar writes:
But I have never said there was nothing more; what I have said is that Jesus said the important job for us is to try to do. That is paramount.
Sure, but all of mankind has been called by Jesus to follow His message of loving your neighbour which is a teaching common to virtually all religions and cultures to one degree or another. That doesn't make everyone a Christian.
jar writes:
Most of the other things as you point out were creations of those who were creating and marketing a new product; Christianity.
Exactly my point. You have chosen to believe that the account of the resurrection specifically, but also that other aspects of the actions and teachings of Jesus were fabrications. It is those things that you don't believe that differentiate Christianity from other religions.
And I have never disputed that the folk creating Christianity (at least those who were creating the surviving chapters of Club Christian) believed those things. But those things are not what Jesus taught or Jesus mission or Jesus ministry.
That just isn't correct. Yes Jesus taught those things. I'd suggest that you are making the same mistake that Faith does in making it all about personal salvation. Yes, Jesus taught that as individuals we are made right with God by having loving hearts which manifests itself in our actions.
He also taught a lot more than that. Just for a start He obviously saw himself leading a messianic movement which was to be a position held by one who saw himself as the anointed one of God. He also saw himself as more than that by calling himself the "Son of Man" with the obvious reference to Daniel 7 where He is given dominion and seated with the "Ancient of Days".
You apparently reject those things which are specifically Christian and accept only the aspects of the faith that are generally believed by presumably everyone on this forum from atheist to fundamentalist.
If Jesus did make those claims and those things aren't true then Jesus was, as I said, delusional and why would anyone want to follow the teachings of one who was delusional? If the stories told by the Gospel writers, and Paul for that matter, were fabrications then why bother with Christianity or the church? Better to follow Gandhi or Buddha. Also, if they were fabrications then why believe anything they said about what Jesus said and did?
Your views are a series of good ideas common to many Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, agnostics, atheists etc. From what I have read of yours there is nothing that you believe that is specific to the Christian church. As I said if you want to call yourself a Christian then fine, but there appears to be nothing you believe that makes you a Christian other than the fact that you are part of a Christian culture and participate in a Christian church.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by jar, posted 08-03-2015 9:03 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by Bliyaal, posted 08-03-2015 2:58 PM GDR has replied
 Message 321 by Faith, posted 08-03-2015 3:00 PM GDR has replied
 Message 333 by jar, posted 08-04-2015 9:35 AM GDR has not replied

  
Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2368 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


(1)
Message 320 of 1444 (765649)
08-03-2015 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 319 by GDR
08-03-2015 12:16 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
I remember Jar mentionning the Nicene Creed many times as the core of his beliefs saying. Maybe you shouldn't accuse him of disbelieving things too quickly.
By the way, let me ask you a question. How is important the suffering, death and resurection of Jesus in you beliefs and more importantly, why?
Does it really change the message of Jesus' teachings? You sound like you want/need Christianity to be special like nothing else. Seriously, who cares if the message is the same as long as it's for the better good?
IMHO, that's where Jar is going at.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by GDR, posted 08-03-2015 12:16 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by Faith, posted 08-03-2015 3:09 PM Bliyaal has replied
 Message 323 by GDR, posted 08-03-2015 9:22 PM Bliyaal has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 321 of 1444 (765650)
08-03-2015 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 319 by GDR
08-03-2015 12:16 PM


Jesus' mission not limited to individual salvation
I really don't want to get into this discussion at all but when you bring me up I feel obliged to say something.
I'd suggest that you are making the same mistake that Faith does in making it all about personal salvation. Yes, Jesus taught that as individuals we are made right with God by having loving hearts which manifests itself in our actions.
Comparing my views to jar's in any way whatever is extremely misleading. We have NOTHING in common in our views of Christianity.
I've never said it's "all about" individual salvation, although that is the rock bottom essential, where it all starts, and YOU make the huge mistake of thinking it's possible to be a Christian without that foundation, without being saved, without the new birth, without being transformed by the Holy Spirit. As you go on to say, "Jesus taught that as individuals we are made right with God by having loving hearts...." This is how you usually put it, saying nothing about HOW we can have loving hearts, as if we could just decide to have loving hearts, which is YOUR huge mistake. If we aren't born again, if we have not received the Holy Spirit, if we have not been supernaturally transformed, we simply cannot have changed hearts because that is a supernatural gift from God.
Simply deciding to try to act lovingly is self-delusion. Salvation is a supernatural gift from God, a changed heart is a supernatural gift from God. But you cannot receive that supernatural gift unless you believe rightly: that Jesus Himself is God incarnate, for instance, that He died in our place to pay for our sins, for instance.
As for personal salvation being all that I believe, that's really not true, it's merely foundational which is why I emphasize it with those who obviously deny it as you do and jar does. What Jesus did begins with saving us individually, but it's all part of the plan of redemption for the entire Creation. He came to set the entire Creation right, as it was all warped at the Fall, all subjected to death. At the Fall we lost our spiritual relationship with God, and that has to be supernaturally restored to us before we can have changed hearts which is where the redemption of the Creation has to begin.
Jar doesn't believe in the Fall, and I don't recall you ever affirming it either. It's the reason we need to be saved. Salvation is the restoration of human beings to our pre-Fall condition, or even better than that since unlike Adam we will never be able to sin again when God's Kingdom has come in all its power. But this is just the first and most important part of the plan to redeem the entire Creation that came under the curse at the Fall. Scripture says "the whole Creation groans" for the final revelation of the salvation of it all, the "revealing of the Sons of God" when everything will be redeemed from the curse brought about by human disobedience of God.
Are you a Son of God, GDR? You deny so much of the truth I don't see how you can be. It takes a supernatural transformation but you seem to have nothing but your own philosophical persuasion of some of the truths of Christianity, and as you say about jar, not even the most essential ones either.
But isn't this all off the topic of God's foreknowledge and human free will?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by GDR, posted 08-03-2015 12:16 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by GDR, posted 08-03-2015 9:38 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 322 of 1444 (765651)
08-03-2015 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by Bliyaal
08-03-2015 2:58 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
It might be instructive to know what jar thinks the Nicene Creed is actually saying since he claims to affirm it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by Bliyaal, posted 08-03-2015 2:58 PM Bliyaal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 329 by Bliyaal, posted 08-04-2015 7:39 AM Faith has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 323 of 1444 (765660)
08-03-2015 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by Bliyaal
08-03-2015 2:58 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Billyaal writes:
I remember Jar mentionning the Nicene Creed many times as the core of his beliefs saying. Maybe you shouldn't accuse him of disbelieving things too quickly.
I'm also basing it on what jar has said on this and other threads.
Billyaal writes:
By the way, let me ask you a question. How is important the suffering, death and resurection of Jesus in you beliefs and more importantly, why?
If Jesus isn't resurrected then the whole Christian faith is meaningless. If it is the truth then we should pay attention to what He has to say as God has confirmed and vindicated Jesus' life and message.
Billyaal writes:
Does it really change the message of Jesus' teachings? You sound like you want/need Christianity to be special like nothing else. Seriously, who cares if the message is the same as long as it's for the better good?
It does change the message because if Jesus wasn't resurrected then he was just another messianic failure and delusional to boot, so there is no good reason to pay any attention to what He had to say.
You can get that same message of love and peace from other sources. As I said, try Buddha or Gandhi.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by Bliyaal, posted 08-03-2015 2:58 PM Bliyaal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by Bliyaal, posted 08-04-2015 7:37 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 332 by Stile, posted 08-04-2015 9:27 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 336 by ringo, posted 08-04-2015 11:57 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 324 of 1444 (765662)
08-03-2015 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 321 by Faith
08-03-2015 3:00 PM


Re: Jesus' mission not limited to individual salvation
Faith writes:
Comparing my views to jar's in any way whatever is extremely misleading. We have NOTHING in common in our views of Christianity.
You know that I realize that your views are very different than jar's. Where I draw the parallel is that your view is roughly that you are saved so that you don't go to hell and you have your views on how that happens. Jar's view is, (although he doesn't phrase it this way), is simply that you do your best to be good and that is what makes you right with God.
Without quoting everything you said I probably agree with more than you think I do. I agree that it is God that changes our heart but that is not restricted to Christians. I contend that that still small voice of our conscience is God touching our hearts which is there for all mankind.
I also agree that if we truly give our hearts over to Jesus, with His life and teaching then we do have what you can call a born again experience, where God will renew our hearts and take us into His Kingdom. However the point is that this is done for a purpose. As Christians we have a job to do which is to reflect the love of God into all His creation. Individual salvation is fine but the main point is that we are saved for a purpose and not just to avoid hell.
This of course also does not mean that everyone else is going to hell. The Gospels tell us just the opposite, as jar points out by quoting from Matthew 25 with the sheep and the goats.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by Faith, posted 08-03-2015 3:00 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by Faith, posted 08-03-2015 10:40 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 334 by jar, posted 08-04-2015 9:41 AM GDR has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 325 of 1444 (765668)
08-03-2015 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by GDR
08-03-2015 9:38 PM


Re: Jesus' mission not limited to individual salvation
You know that I realize that your views are very different than jar's.
Yes, but others reading your post may not and then get a misleading impression.
Where I draw the parallel is that your view is roughly that you are saved so that you don't go to hell and you have your views on how that happens. Jar's view is, (although he doesn't phrase it this way), is simply that you do your best to be good and that is what makes you right with God.
Which is more like your view than like mine wouldn't you say?
Without quoting everything you said I probably agree with more than you think I do. I agree that it is God that changes our heart but that is not restricted to Christians.
But that is a HUGE difference, GDR. It's central to Christian faith that believing in Christ's death for us is what brings Pentecost to us, or the gift of the Holy Spirit who changes us by indwelling us. If you don't believe in Christ's death for our salvation you will not receive the Holy Spirit for living the Christian life. God doesn't just change hearts randomly or in response to our efforts to be good, it's all part of salvation through the sacrifice of Christ.
I contend that that still small voice of our conscience is God touching our hearts which is there for all mankind.
I agree that all mankind retains conscience which is the evidence of all humanity's having the image of God, but it is distorted due to the Fall so that it's rare for the conscience of any two people to agree. Even after salvation the conscience has to grow. But the change of heart that makes a person a Christian is a supernatural "quickening" or bringing-to-life of the spirit that died at the Fall, much more than conscience.
I also agree that if we truly give our hearts over to Jesus, with His life and teaching then we do have what you can call a born again experience, where God will renew our hearts and take us into His Kingdom. However the point is that this is done for a purpose. As Christians we have a job to do which is to reflect the love of God into all His creation. Individual salvation is fine but the main point is that we are saved for a purpose and not just to avoid hell.
We are indeed saved for a purpose: First to grow in grace in this life to become more like Jesus, growing in our ability to do good as He did, and then ultimately to govern the new Creation when the Kingdom of God has fully come. But being born again precedes anything we can do toward following Jesus. This is essential to Christianity. WE can do nothing, as Jesus Himself tells us, "You can do nothing without Me" and "with God all things are possible." But nothing is possible on the level of God's purposes done merely by our own efforts. it all comes from Him. Nobody can do good by God's lights in our fallen flesh, if we are not supernaturally changed we are not His.
This of course also does not mean that everyone else is going to hell. The Gospels tell us just the opposite, as jar points out by quoting from Matthew 25 with the sheep and the goats.
Some degree of Hell is where we are all destined to go if we are not saved, because of the sin that infects us since the Fall. The spirit that died at the Fall has to be quickened for us to be saved; the Fall has to be reversed before we can avoid Hell, and that's what Jesus did by taking our sins into His own body and dying in our place. Nobody is saved from Hell who does not believe this-- it's by faith that we are able to enter into this reality. Nevertheless even fallen people who live by God's Law within them will no doubt receive mercy, it's just that scripture is not clear what form that will take.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : correct punctuation

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by GDR, posted 08-03-2015 9:38 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by Phat, posted 08-03-2015 10:58 PM Faith has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 326 of 1444 (765670)
08-03-2015 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 325 by Faith
08-03-2015 10:40 PM


Re: Jesus' mission not limited to individual salvation
Faith writes:
...the change of heart that makes a person a Christian is a supernatural "quickening: or bringing-to-life of the spirit that died at the Fall, much more than conscience.
I've had it happen to me---I remember to this day! I also have witnessed it happening to others. They literally change instantly.
Maintaining the salvation is not our job. I believe, however, that it is our job to be mindful of our attitudes and behaviors.
I agree with jar that we should try and do our best every day,confessing when we are wrong and allowing Gods Spirit to strengthen and perfect us. Perhaps some people fear that it is a form of self hypnosis or something and never allow themselves to trust anything they don't understand. What other explanation is there?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by Faith, posted 08-03-2015 10:40 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 327 by Faith, posted 08-03-2015 11:07 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 327 of 1444 (765673)
08-03-2015 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by Phat
08-03-2015 10:58 PM


Re: Jesus' mission not limited to individual salvation
Maintaining the salvation is not our job.
Oh but it is, Phat! "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling" the scripture tells us. "Do not fail to do good works" is another scriptural admonition, can't remember the exact wording. We are exhorted time and time again in scripture to live our lives rightly. "Stir up the gift that is within you" is another.
I believe, however, that it is our job to be mindful of our attitudes and behaviors.
Which IS maintaining our salvation. And I agree that you do a better job of that than I often do.
I agree with jar that we should try and do our best every day,confessing when we are wrong and allowing Gods Spirit to strengthen and perfect us
Quite true, but if you don't start from salvation any such efforts are done in the flesh and amount to nothing but self delusion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Phat, posted 08-03-2015 10:58 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2368 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


Message 328 of 1444 (765677)
08-04-2015 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 323 by GDR
08-03-2015 9:22 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Meaningless? So you just confirmed it, the message doesn't matter for you. You only want it to be special, to be different.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by GDR, posted 08-03-2015 9:22 PM GDR has not replied

  
Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2368 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


Message 329 of 1444 (765678)
08-04-2015 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by Faith
08-03-2015 3:09 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
You mean you don't remember him citing it mutiple times?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Faith, posted 08-03-2015 3:09 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by Faith, posted 08-04-2015 7:49 AM Bliyaal has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 330 of 1444 (765679)
08-04-2015 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 329 by Bliyaal
08-04-2015 7:39 AM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
I would like to know what he thinks it means. Just citing it and quoting it doesn't tell me that. Jar manages to get his own peculiar meanings out of the Bible, which he aggressively insists are THE only meanings possible, and I'd just like to know if he gets the same thing I get out of the Nicene Creed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by Bliyaal, posted 08-04-2015 7:39 AM Bliyaal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by Bliyaal, posted 08-04-2015 8:33 AM Faith has not replied

  
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