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Author | Topic: What is Christianity? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Yet all of the evidence says otherwise. Subjectively? No. I know you are a man of logic, reason, and reality. You often complain about Christians who refuse to take personal responsibility in life and who expect God to do everything to fix and/or cover up their mistakes. It may be that you view the CCoI as willfully ignorant and biased towards a fantasy...based on the God they create. The fact of the matter is, however, that we believe that God is alive. Now. We believe that we can talk with Him anytime and that He listens. We believe that He talks with us many ways. Through our conscience. Through our deep down awareness of the difference between right and wrong.
Phat,to jar writes:
Asa Creedal Christian, how do you reconcile Jesus BEFORE He was made man?jar writes: You likely will say that it is because you are honest and never have any evidence that GOD (or Jesus) speaks to you. I don't. I can't. I appreciate your honesty. We have discussed a time or two how many Christians are dishonest in these matters, claiming, perhaps that GOD told them something or the other when the facts would show that no external voice was ever heard. In addition, you would probably be very wary of listening to or obeying inner voices. This too is wise. Many people are in prison for listening to an inner voice---telling them to kill their child, perhaps...or other outlandish delusions.
jar writes: Personally, when I pray and/or talk with God, I am aware of the seeming illogic voiced by others regarding my sanity. I also am aware of what it is I believe. Assuming my own sanity, I pray and believe that He listens, counsels and advises me. I am still responsible for what I DO, however. Each day is a new lesson. I am as clueless about that as everyone else who is not creating gods. In summation, I believe that God is NOT a product of my imagination, but I readily admit that I cannot explain or prove why this is so except through how I live and relate to others. My actions are all the evidence I can provide.God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I agree. God is a product of somebody else's imagination. You just borrowed the hook, line and sinker.
God is NOT a product of my imagination
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
You know what I mean. He imagined/created us long before we even evolved enough to make him up.
I never understood why you rejected the concept. I suppose it really doesnt matter. You try and do your best and help people and do everything you are supposed to do... I certainly disagree with GIA regarding gnostic christianity---at least as he sees it. And you claim atheism though given your family history, your sense of humor and your overall positive online personality I see no reason why He isnt using you in some manner. (despite your preference to simply be left alone)God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
As I suggested, the concept was originated by "somebody else". I don't think the tendency to believe in gods is inherent in humans. Somebody makes up a god and convinces others to believe in it.
I never understood why you rejected the concept.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
And the point of the story is wrong. No government would arrest people for showing some aspect of Jesus' teaching in their lives. They'd arrest people who are members of a Christian organization. Well, no ringo. What you are describing is not the point of the story, so it is you and not the story that is wrong. Your position is exactly the same as rebutting the point of an Aesop's fable by insisting that tortoises and hares cannot actually talk and that they would never actually race each other. Yeah, that's true, but sleeping during a race is still a bad idea. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
You said in Message 191:
What you are describing is not the point of the story, so it is you and not the story that is wrong.quote:But it's the ONLY way. You can't identify everybody who gives a dollar to a panhandler as a Christian. NoNukes writes:
No. My position is that you can't identify a hare by the patterns on its shell.
Your position is exactly the same as rebutting the point of an Aesop's fable by insisting that tortoises and hares cannot actually talk and that they would never actually race each other.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: I agree...especially in modern culture. I knew about God (the mythos) for many years. I never planned on actual belief...being as important as it now is in my life.
I don't think the tendency to believe in gods is inherent in humans.Somebody makes up a god and convinces others to believe in it. IIRC, nobody convinced me to believe. It was that one day I was changed. What convinced me was that the feeling was just as strong the next morning...long after I should have forgotten about it.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Phat writes: What convinced me was that the feeling was just as strong the next morning Having worked in mental hospitals for a while I can tell you that people's minds can generate all manner of strong and convincing feelings that are quite delusionary and often permanent. But suppose this feeling is real, why would God choose you? And more importantly why not me? If believing in God is the only way to get into this heaven thing, isn't it rather unfair of him to pick some non-believers - like you and Faith - but not others. Why not pick us all? Why is he leaving people out? Does he have favourites or is he tossing his famous dice? And, if he's barging into people's minds like this, what happened to your precious free will? Can you see that there's all sorts of problems with this notion of being selectively saved?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Nonukes writes: But the point of my aunt's rather impractical hypothetical is that simply identifying Church attendees is not the correct way to define true Christians. ringo writes: But it's the ONLY way. You can't identify everybody who gives a dollar to a panhandler as a Christian. Your response suggests that you lack even the slightest bit of imagination. Of course there are ways to identify Christians other than by catching them attending church. 1. We might arrest everyone wearing a crucifix.2. We might bug their homes and catch them praying in the name of Jesus. 3. We might catch them reading the New Testament 4. We might have people report them when the attempted to proselytize. 5. We might ask them whether they worship Christ and arrest anyone who refused to simply deny being a Christian. 6. We might catch people who worship on days when church is closed. 7. We might arrest anyone we caught professing to be a Christian in public. 8. We might arrest everyone reading Bible verses through a megaphone on the sidewalk. 9. We might arrest everyone who gives a panhandler a sandwich and a Chick tract. 10. We might arrest people for attending church on any day except Sunday. 11. We might watch people who attend church, but only arrest them if they accumulate some number of points from doing items 1-10 from above list. The methods above might be more or less reliable than simply catching people leaving a church. But at least some of them are in tune with my Aunt's point which is that there are plenty of posers in church. But the idea that finding people at church is the only way to identify a Christian is ludicrous. I've identified fellow Christians during conversations at the bus stop. Maybe you can too. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
If you hadn't known about the mythos, would you have thought of it by yourself? Do you think it's just coincidence that you happen to live in a Christian culture and you happen to believe in the Christian God? I'd be impressed if God was communing with you and telling you his prophet was Mohammed.
IIRC, nobody convinced me to believe. It was that one day I was changed.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
Your Big Brother methods would involve a lot of work. Authoritarians are interested in suppressing subversives and the easiest way to suppress subversives is by suppressing subversive organizations. Unorganized subversives aren't that much of a threat.
The methods above might be more or less reliable than simply catching people leaving a church.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Your Big Brother methods would involve a lot of work. Yes, they would. And that effort would be absolutely beside the point in what was a hypothetical thought experiment. But of course if all you are really trying to do is shift the goal posts from impossible to impractical, then you have a perfectly great ringo argument; an argument that is just as pointless as telling us that turtles cannot talk. I wonder if Einstein knew that there were no elevators in space and that there were no uniform gravitational fields? ABE: As if further evidence of your BS were required, apparently it is okay for you to bring up and rule out giving money to pandhandlers as not effective at identifying Christians, but somehow impractical when I bring up 'giving panhandler's a Chick tract' or arresting people for using a megaphone on street corners, those things are somehow too difficult and must be ruled out regardless of whether they are effective. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
I have no idea what you think you're disagreeing with. Could you be more clear?
But of course if all you are really trying to do is shift the goal posts from impossible to impractical, then you have a perfectly great ringo argument....
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Ringo writes: No way to know. If you hadn't known about the mythos, would you have thought of it by yourself? Do you think it's just coincidence that you happen to live in a Christian culture and you happen to believe in the Christian God? If we had access to the statistics of percentages of people from other cultures 'converting" to another religion, I could tell you more. I'd be impressed if God was communing with you and telling you his prophet was Mohammed. Whats so unimpressive about Jesus? As a sidenote...I expect that the name of Jesus is more widely hated than the name of Mohammed. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3983 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 7.0 |
Phat writes: I expect that the name of Jesus is more widely hated than the name of Mohammed. I expect you're wildly wrong. Islam venerates Christ as a prophet; Hindus are generally happy to view him as another avatar of God, and Buddhists generally view Jesus as an enlightened being. Jews, of course, might be bemused at your failure to leave their Book alone and just use his, but I've never seen any hate. Pagans think he needs rescue from the Puritans but is worth it. Who do you think hates the name of Jesus? "If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
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