The Essence Of Faith & Belief.

GOD, if GOD exists is in my opinion and belief concerned about humans. This, of course, is a human-centric perspective. I don't limit my study of GOD to whimsical ideas---A God who lies while the serpent tells the truth, etc. This totally confuses the idea and the ideal. I also believe that GOD is good. Not complete. Often, when I bring this up, I am told that I prefer fantasy over reality, that I have a "whats in it for me" approach to a relationship with God, and that I dont look at what other religions and human literature have to say on the subject.This brings us back to what the essence of faith and belief really are. Are they faith in a higher distant power? Faith in a human-centric personal higher power? Faith in humanity and what we as a people collectively do and inspire each other to become? These questions resurrect this topic.

So would you say that theists are interested in hope and seek faith whereas atheists are interested in reality and seek evidence?(by and large)

How would one know that another is an atheist?If they were sharing love and compassion for others, the issue may well never come up...unless a Christian insisted that the person pray with him or whatever.As far as being another species....I thought of this scripture:

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1 Peter 2:9(KJV)But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

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Believers often come across as peculiar and alien. Others might say delusional. We too are simply human, however. You may never know who we are if you meet some of those who are mature and can control their emotions and zeal.

What is truth?Is truth providing a homeless man some food?How about buying him a beer?Is it true that some folks won't be helped by the beer and others would?Is truth determined through facts? Evidence? Are there other ways to discern truth?

Of course. Republicans hold on to their money. Go figure.

Allow me to play devils advocate for a moment.(seeing how satan hates giving money away )

Why should I work hard for my money every day and then freely give it away with no regard nor care of its impact or significance? In essence, I would be supporting an extended family of dysfunctional addicted adults with the nebulous hope that one day one or more of them might benefit from my hard earned funds and turn their own life around?

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Sounds rather cost inefficient to me, though to be fair it is better to give it away than gamble it.

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Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

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One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

We need to be wise Stewards with the money we are given.We don't want to hoard it or waste it. It is wise to use common sense when giving to street people.

Personally, I am quite frugal with my money. I try and avoid starbucks in general--it is simply too expensive. I can buy a whole can of coffee and make my own drink at home. Having more money in my pocket means that if I am sensitive to the Spirit and a panhandler is placed on my heart I can then give them an adequate amount to help them. Not everyone who says "do you have any spare change" is necessarily eligible for a gift. God does the choosing...I obey the inner unction.

(Whereupon Ringo quotes scripture)

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Matthew 7:7-10 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

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The scripture refers to us asking God...not each other.If more street people trusted God rather than attempting to sponge money off of every driver with an extra buck in their wallet, they might get off of the streets and not become codependant on begging.Mind you, I don't look for excuses not to give, but I also don't simply hand out money to whosoever asks. That isn't wise.(whereupon ringo again quotes scripture)

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Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

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I wouldnt simply expect anyone and everyone to hand me money either. If I was in need and was in prayer, God would provide through His people.Edited by Phat, : added

It depends on the moment and the circumstances. Certainly one is allowed to spend some of their money on themselves.On the other hand, let us not forget our many panhandlers...for we could end up as one of them.

A fool and his money are soon parted.My ongoing point with Ringo is that one should use wisdom when giving money away. As for satan....he wont hesitate to buy you a drink, but he is more reluctant to help you move.

I'd try and get him/her a job, for starters. If they were hungry I would feed them. Giving money is not always the best option.

The reason that I brought back this old topic is that I remember when jar used to tell me that God, as I described Him, was akin to one of Foster's Imaginary Friends. I recently heard this podcast from the HIDDEN BRAIN on NPR.
TranscriptI recommend a listen. Here are some of the snippets I took from the transcript:One-Sided Relationships And The Imagination : NPR

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VEDANTAMThe Host) This week on HIDDEN BRAIN - the thin line between the imaginary and the real(...)
Psychologists sometimes refer to such emotional connections as parasocial relationships, one-way relationships. In some ways, they are akin to the imaginary friends that children have. As we grow up, we're told to set such relationships aside, to tuck our stuffed animals away in a closet. Clinging to imaginary companions can suggest that you are lonely or maladjusted. But what if there is more to these relationships than we realize? (...)
VEDANTAM: The voices we hear, the secret friends we have, they often don't seem like mere extensions of ourselves. Megan said Cher seemed to be braver than she was, wiser than she was. The Cher in Megan's head knew things that Megan didn't know. How is this possible? How can one part of the mind know something that another part of the same mind does not know?

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When we come back, we explore this question in another domain. We look at people who hear not the voice of a singer or a celebrity but the voice of something much bigger.

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TANYA LUHRMANN: I mean, fundamentally, the story of God is a story about the human imagination. The human capacity to take seriously the sense that the world that we see before us is not all there is of the world. (...) The world felt as if it was becoming more connected. It felt like I was having these synchronicities. Things would - you know, I'd walk to the greengrocer. And the greengrocer would say something that I had been thinking about. And so I would have these experiences. And then over the course of the year, you know, I really saw myself change, felt myself change.

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VEDANTAM: When I spoke to her, Tanya thought back to another moment when the line between the real and the imaginary became blurred - it was early during her field research, and she was on a train to meet Gareth Knight for the first time. She was reading a book about magic and mysticism. It was called "Experience Of The Inner Worlds."

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LUHRMANN: And it was about the experience of power and this idea of a power outside of me that was present and kind of there in the world. It was kind of new to me.

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VEDANTAM: The book was esoteric and complex. And she strained her mind to understand it.

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(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

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UNIDENTIFIED NARRATOR: On the cabalistic Tree of Life framework, we see a method of theosophical classification that's able to take in the concept of both creator and the creation. This is not so evident...

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LUHRMANN: And he was talking about Tibetan this and cabalistic that and white light that. And I remember kind of just trying to understand the sentences and concentrating so hard. And there are people around me talking. And I was trying to really focus on the book.
VEDANTAM: Right then, she started to feel hot.

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LUHRMANN: I began to feel power, like an electrical charge that seemed to move through me starting above me and moving through my body and going into the floor. And it was strong. And it was vivid. And I felt fantastic. I felt more alive. I felt completely alert, seeing - like, all of my senses were incredibly sharp.
LUHRMANN: And as I was feeling this way and trying to figure out what on Earth was going on, I looked over, and there were wisps of smoke coming out of my bag.

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VEDANTAM: A battery-powered bike lamp she had stored in her bag was melting.(...) Now, there are two ways to think of this. You can say Tanya's thoughts about power melted the battery. Or you can say, huh, interesting coincidence. But the point is if you put yourself in a frame of mind where you expect unusual things to happen, you're more likely to see unusual things happen. The time she spent with Gareth and the others taught Tanya something very important about the imagination. It's a skill. You can improve it, make it sharper. You can practice it. And when you do, remarkable things follow.

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LUHRMANN: There are all kinds of things that people experience. But what I can say is that the more time you spend doing what I would call inner sense cultivation, the more likely you are to report these events, that people have these moments in which, in effect, what they're imagining breaks forth into the world.

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VEDANTAM: As she did more research, Tanya realized there was a profound disconnect in the way people think about the imagination today and the way they used to think about it in earlier times.

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LUHRMANN: I think the emphasis on the imagination as something that is obviously not material emerges with the secular world, with a sense that there - that what is real is the stuff that we walk on and the things that we see that everybody else can see. And that what is other is not that real stuff.

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(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

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VEDANTAM: Tanya went on to become a professor of anthropology at Stanford University. In 2002, she began some new fieldwork focused on another group of people - evangelical Christians who wanted to develop an intense personal relationship with God. They were practicing what she calls inner sense cultivation.

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LUHRMANN: And I was interviewing some young, blonde Southern Californian who's kind of like - her hair would swing back and forth. She looked like she belonged at the beach. And I was asking her all these pedantic questions, and at one point, she said, you know, if you want to understand God, just have a cup of coffee with him.

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VEDANTAM: Other people told her similar things. The way to make an abstract, invisible entity real in your life was to do things with that entity that you would do with a spouse or a co-worker.

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LUHRMANN: But, I mean, what people would say is that you needed to get to know God the way you would get to know somebody when you went out for coffee with them. You became a friend of the person. You asked about their life; they asked about your life. You had a back-and-forth. You learn to know each other. You learn to trust each other. And that that's how you should get to know God.
VEDANTAM: Tanya met people who said they had practiced these techniques so often that they could interact with God as if God was a living, breathing person. Ever the skeptical scientist, Tanya decided to see if the things she was hearing from evangelical Christians were reproducible in a scientific experiment. She randomly assigned some Christians to practice prayer that involved imagining a very intense personal relationship with God.

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She had them read a story from the Bible in which Jesus was represented in different forms - for example, as a baby, a shepherd or on the cross. Then she asked subjects to interact with Jesus in their minds using all of their senses - sight, sound, smell, touch. Here's an example of one set of instructions related to the Bible's 23rd psalm, which says, the Lord is my shepherd.

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UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: (Reading) See the shepherd before you. See his face, his eyes, the light that streams from him. He turns to walk, and you follow him. Notice his gait. See the heel over which he leads you. Feel the breeze over the grass. Smell its sweetness. Listen to the birds as they sing. Notice what you feel as you followed the shepherd.

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VEDANTAM: Tanya invited the volunteers back after a month. She asked them what had happened in their minds in the intervening weeks. People in the imaginative prayer group responded very differently than people in the control group.

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LUHRMANN: So I found that people in the prayer group were more likely to say that their mental images were vivid. They were more likely to say that God felt more like a person to them, that they were more likely to have gotten angry at God or become playful with God. They were also more likely to say they'd had a moment, when they had heard God speak in a way they could hear with their ears, or they had seen something that wasn't materially real in the world, or they'd had some vivid sense of God's presence.

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They were more likely to say that they'd had an experience as if what had to be experienced in the mind had somehow broken free, and it was experienced with the senses, as if it sort of jumped out side of the mind-world barrier and was felt by them in the world.

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VEDANTAM: As people consciously exercised their imaginations, their imaginations stopped feeling like imagination.

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LUHRMANN: I would ask people whether God was like an imaginary friend, and people would always correct me. People would say, oh, no, he's not imaginary. Then they'd talk about him as if he was kind of like an invisible being who walked by their side and who, you know, put his arm around their shoulders. People would tell me about sitting next to God on a park bench, and they were talking to him about their life, and they were asking him about his life. And people - they did that.(...) People would, in effect, take bits and pieces of the best parts of their relationships with other people and they'd kind of weave them together so that in this what you might almost call play therapy, they are interacting with these different parts of God and then kind of changing their understanding of God and then talking about God. And so they're always working on their God concept.
VEDANTAM: What does it look and sound like to work on your God concept? How do believers distinguish the voice of God from their own hopes and dreams and desires? And what lessons can these imaginings hold for all people, religious and nonreligious? When we come back, we go to California to meet one of the evangelical Christians at the church where Tanya did her fieldwork. We find out how he trains himself to hear the voice of God.
It's a beautiful morning in Palo Alto, but then again, it's always a beautiful morning in Palo Alto. Alex Van Riesen shakes my hand and tells me I remind him of Jennifer Aniston. He doesn't know either of us, but it feels like he does.
ALEX VAN RIESEN: I found it ironic that you're doing an episode on people that you think you know but you don't know, and I realize I'm living that experience this morning by meeting you, Shankar.
VEDANTAM: (Laughter).We're meeting at the offices of the Vineyard Church in Palo Alto. Alex used to be a pastor at the church and is now a member. Before we head inside, he pulls from the trunk of his car a black metal box. It has silver hatches and a combination lock. Alex is a big guy, but he strains as he carries the box into the office. He puts it down at his feet and pops the locks. Inside are about 30 carefully numbered, large notebooks.
VAN RIESEN: Sort of narrow-ruled. They're like the notebooks you take notes in almost in a science class. They're very narrow because I write small. And so I have all the journals that I've ever had since 1984.
VEDANTAM: Alex tells me that whenever he's worried or angry or wants to figure out something in his life, he takes out a notebook and asks God - more specifically, Jesus - for guidance. It's what he did after he became lead pastor and was feeling overwhelmed. In small, neat handwriting, Alex carries out a dialogue, a question-and-answer session in which he takes on the role of both himself and Jesus. It's one part therapy, one part prayer. He starts with his own side of the conversation.

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VAN RIESEN: I had a hard time getting up this morning. I wanted to stay in bed. I think I was just starting to feel comfortable in this role as the lead pastor of the church. I feel stirred up, anxious, worried. Jesus asks me, what's another time you felt like this? And I say, well, I'm noting that I've not felt like this for a while. I have moments, but in general, my life is pretty solid. That gave me hope that things were really changing for me. Then hearing this news and getting all stirred up internally makes me wonder whether I'm growing at all. Jesus says, I'm at work in you, and I'm bringing transformation. You know that I'm about changing people...

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VEDANTAM: I have so many questions. Is Alex imagining what Jesus would say, what he thinks he would say? Is he actually hearing a literal voice talking in his ear? Alex says it's not like he just flips a switch and Jesus comes up on his internal radio station. It's a conscious mental practice that has deepened over the years. It's like he imagines what a wise therapist would say, and then he says it to himself.

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VAN RIESEN: It's similar. I mean, I even - as I'm reading this - and I haven't read this for a while - some of the questions sound like things like, you know, how do you feel about that? A lot of them are questions that Jesus asked me to go deeper with what I'm feeling.

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VEDANTAM: But he says there are things that Jesus can tell him that a therapist never could.

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VAN RIESEN: He can make promises - promises like, I'm with you, like, when you feel alone or you feel really trapped. I think that there's promises like, I have a place for you when you're making a decision and you feel really torn, and you don't know which way to decide. And he goes, I will help you.

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VEDANTAM: Alex says he was first brought to this way of thinking by a dramatic moment of personal connection with Jesus.

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VAN RIESEN: And I was in this worship hall - probably, like, two or three thousand people at this event. And all of a sudden, I felt a hand on my shoulder. But I didn't look around. We were in the midst of worship. And then very close to my ear, I heard a voice whisper into my ear things that I had never told anyone.

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VEDANTAM: It was a voice, a literal male voice. The voice seemed to know of mean and hurtful things that Alex had done to other people.

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VAN RIESEN: I was like, how could somebody know these things? I think he also mentioned that - I know that your life has been hard. I know it pains you that your mother died at childbirth, that your - you didn't have a close relationship with your biological siblings. And he said, I know these things, and I love you. And I'm with you. And so the minute he stopped speaking, I turned around, and there was no one there.

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There is lots more, but I recommend listening to the podcast or reading the full transcript.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

After listening to the HIDDEN BRAIN podcast, I finally am beginning to see your point after all these years.

As a believer, the only time that I recall thinking that I heard a clear audible voice was about two weeks after I had gotten saved. (That's a story in itself, but I can share again) One other time I heard a chorus of "voices" that sounded like Alvin and the chipmunks.The very day I was touched at the altar, I had no desire to smoke weed again. Before that day, I would have been hard-pressed to stop even for a day. A couple of weeks later, I took down the vacuum flask that I used to preserve my "good stash" and saw one little bit left. I was tempted to finish it off, but I was also aware of a deep relationship with God as I understood Him. So out loud in a house by myself, I talked to Him. I said "But this isnt idolatry! Suddenly as clear as an audio recording, a voice said one word: "Choose!" I had no idea if it was Gods voice but at that moment I chose to get rid of that stash....forever.The podcast from Hidden Brain addresses this issue also. Let me find it on the transcript:

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VEDANTAM: The way to make an abstract, invisible entity real in your life was to do things with that entity that you would do with a spouse or a co-worker.

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LUHRMANN: But, I mean, what people would say is that you needed to get to know God the way you would get to know somebody when you went out for coffee with them. You became a friend of the person. You asked about their life; they asked about your life. You had a back-and-forth. You learn to know each other. You learn to trust each other. And that that's how you should get to know God.(...)I would ask people whether God was like an imaginary friend, and people would always correct me. People would say, oh, no, he's not imaginary. Then they'd talk about him as if he was kind of like an invisible being who walked by their side and who, you know, put his arm around their shoulders. People would tell me about sitting next to God on a park bench, and they were talking to him about their life, and they were asking him about his life. And people - they did that.

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Edited by Phat, : added detail