Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,871 Year: 4,128/9,624 Month: 999/974 Week: 326/286 Day: 47/40 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   White Privilege
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8561
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(8)
Message 3 of 276 (766406)
08-17-2015 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
08-17-2015 6:57 PM


Re: Reverse Discrimination?
Im all for ending discrimination in society, but I'll be damned if i'm going to give up anything that i now have.
No one is asking you or anyone else to give up anything.
White privilege and male privilege are social phenomena most white men don’t even know they have. They are not special privileges or special rights per se but are a deferential treatment in society. It is a level of personal and professional respect one receives over others just by being a white male.
This is a white man’s society. The centers of influence and the levers of power are controlled by white men. Our European ancestors brought this form of social structure with them. Men were superior to women so men populated the councils and the courts. This was a majority white culture so whites dominated the councils and the courts.
The issues is, Phat, that after so many centuries this structure is so ingrained in our psyche we don’t even notice when the same level of equal respect and equal treatment is not given to others. There still is a glass ceiling in corporate America that applies to non-whites and non-men. Pay disparity still exists. The equal pay for equal work mantra applies to both women and non-whites. From the work place to the courts we treat people of color, often in the most subtle of ways, different than we treat a fellow white male. That is white privilege. That is male privilege. And we white men never even see it. We don’t notice. We’re oblivious that our treatment of "them" in our society is any different then we treat our fellow white men.
The Black Lives Matter movement, like the Black Power and Black Pride memes of the past, is an attempt to get this white male-dominated social construct to see where we continue to be so blind.
The only way to improve all lives in this society is to acknowledge this privilege does exist, learn that there is a disparity in social respect at work in our culture and then be conscious of its subtle forms. White men cannot learn of this or see it operating just by flowing along believing we are color blind or giving, even heart felt, lip service to the notion that I am not a racist. These mean nothing and do nothing to affect change.
We need to actively engage gender and racial issues. And the best way for a white man to engage is to listen to the grievances, hear the stories, and pay attention to them. Swallow the fear. Don’t argue. Don’t get the dander up. Just open your eyes, shut the fuck up and listen.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 08-17-2015 6:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by MrHambre, posted 08-17-2015 9:42 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 12 by ramoss, posted 08-18-2015 11:21 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8561
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(6)
Message 5 of 276 (766410)
08-17-2015 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Jon
08-17-2015 9:24 PM


Re: Nonsense In = Sociology Out
Says the privileged white man.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Jon, posted 08-17-2015 9:24 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Jon, posted 08-17-2015 9:40 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8561
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 8 of 276 (766414)
08-17-2015 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by MrHambre
08-17-2015 9:42 PM


Re: Privilege Revisited
But the most important and insidious aspect to white privilege is that it doesn't depend on personal bias. Systemic inequities disadvantage nonwhites and women in ways that have nothing to do with interpersonal animus.
The effects of white-male privilege permeating through the entire social construct roll up and reinforce the privilege. As you say, the insidious part is we are blind to it happening, it's almost like instinct, we don't even know we're doing it. I consider your message the embodiment to my prelude. Thank you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by MrHambre, posted 08-17-2015 9:42 PM MrHambre has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8561
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(4)
Message 19 of 276 (766507)
08-18-2015 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
08-18-2015 1:44 PM


Re: some privilege
I think Phat is trying to bring to the table is that middle class and working class whites hardly feel privileged ...
... as compared to whom, the rest of white society? Does a white person not feeling the white privilege of white society mean they do not already benefit from that privilege?
Jury Duty
Other than the blatantly open racism shown in the article the interesting white privilege hidden in the text is that blacks are well under-represented in the jury pool to begin with.
Why?
Because the pools are drawn from voter rolls and the white structures are set to discourage blacks from registering to vote.
Given the history and culture how would you feel being black facing an all white jury?
A white person in this country has no such concerns. When a white person goes to trial are they going to see or feel the white privilege from which they have just benefited? Do you see or feel this privilege you benefit from in being white? You didn't even know the benefit was there as you took advantage of it.
It doesn't matter that a white person doesn't feel or see their privilege in this white society. This problem is NOT about the white man's experience. It is the black experience, the brown experience, the female experience in this society that define white privilege and male privilege.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.
Edited by AZPaul3, : Hey! No one called me on "to who" vs "to whom"? Y'all asleep?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 08-18-2015 1:44 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 08-18-2015 7:52 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 45 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-19-2015 9:19 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8561
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(5)
Message 30 of 276 (766539)
08-18-2015 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
08-18-2015 7:52 PM


Re: some privilege
...but it's unfair in the extreme to make people guilty of sins against others due to a privilege they are completely unaware of...
The sin, here Faith, is being unaware. To go through your life so callously blind to what this white-privileged society does to "them" is our crime.
You have no excuse for being unaware. Blacks, Hispanics, women have been screaming for decades about the subtle institutional inequities in this white-man's world. This is yet another call for you to FIND OUT! Unintentional bigotry, closeted unacknowledged racism, just continues the suffering in all of society.
If you remain unaware then you cannot help change the society through your vote, your conversations, your blog. If you do not stop, look and listen, if you do not learn, if you do not become aware, then you perpetuate the injustice. You are the oppressor whether it's active or not, whether you know it or not. We all are.
There is deep injustice in this even if there is also injustice in the white privilege itself. I think you need to acknowledge this.
What I acknowledge is that you have not appreciated your position and remain a part of the problem.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 08-18-2015 7:52 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 08-19-2015 5:37 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8561
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 43 of 276 (766562)
08-19-2015 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Faith
08-19-2015 6:36 AM


Re: If Re: some privilege
...accused of a million things that never even crossed our minds.
No more sleep walking through life, Faith. Now you know. No more excuses.
Mind your own business.
We live here, Faith. The injustices of this society most certainly are our business. Our business, Faith. If you want to ignore these issues because you think life has given you a hard enough row without being black in a racist white society that's fine. I have enough social justice warrior left in me to pick up the slack.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 08-19-2015 6:36 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 08-19-2015 9:17 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8561
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 54 of 276 (766604)
08-19-2015 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by New Cat's Eye
08-19-2015 9:19 AM


Re: some privilege
How's that work?
Like this:
Voter discrimination
You don't vote you don't get a jury summons.
In a county where half the population is black the jury pools are 65% white. With the use of peremptory challenges juries often end up all white.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-19-2015 9:19 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-19-2015 4:38 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8561
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 66 of 276 (766647)
08-19-2015 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by New Cat's Eye
08-19-2015 4:38 PM


Re: some privilege
It kinda reminds me of a lady I heard bitching about how requiring liability insurance and annual registrations discriminated against black people owning cars.
If that is true then it shows there are crazy people everywhere. It does not negate the reality of racism in voter registration laws.
One example: In a Louisiana parish the powers that be moved a precinct polling place from the fire station in a black neighborhood where it had been for years further out to the Sheriff's Posse Club in the white neighborhood. Can you spell intimidation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-19-2015 4:38 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Jon, posted 08-19-2015 9:38 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8561
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 71 of 276 (766657)
08-19-2015 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Tangle
08-19-2015 3:54 PM


Re: some privilege
The whole idea of privilege is a wrong-headed anachronism. It's not wrong for any class of people to aspire to that kind of freedom and those that have should only be criticised if they pull up the ladder and discriminate against those that haven't got there.
This is a white society. Here and in Europe. On average, the white population has access to better education, medical care and housing. This leads to better employment prospects, higher wages and salaries, status in society, respect and deference, political/judicial consideration and power.
Again, on average non-whites are not afforded these same opportunities to this same degree.
There is an advantage to being white in this society. There is no claim of white privilege by white society ('cept from the crazies as always). The phrase "white privilege" is from those who are disadvantaged by being non-white in this white society. Born of racism and bigotry to be sure but the disadvantages exist.
You can argue the semantics all you want, but those that are given the short end of the stick see the greater opportunities enjoyed by whites as the privilege of being white in this white society.
White privilege is NOT meant as a positive to whites but as the description of a major problem in our society. As with any problem, the first step to correcting it is to acknowledge it is there, that it exists.
White privilege in this society is not some wrong-headed anachronism foisted by egghead liberals onto the political scene but is a reality on the ground that needs to be acknowledged and changed if all peoples are to share, as equals, in the benefits of our society.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2015 3:54 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Tangle, posted 08-20-2015 2:04 AM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 150 by Phat, posted 02-22-2016 4:49 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8561
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 72 of 276 (766661)
08-19-2015 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Jon
08-19-2015 9:38 PM


Re: some privilege
That goes both ways. Lot of white folk are scared to go into black neighborhoods.
How many white precincts have their polling places in black neighborhoods, Jon?
If you want to argue then get real. Your response is bullshit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Jon, posted 08-19-2015 9:38 PM Jon has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8561
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 74 of 276 (766678)
08-20-2015 3:08 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Tangle
08-20-2015 2:04 AM


Re: some privilege
I'm simply making the point that those enjoying the full freedoms of society should not be regarded as having a negative value in that society; calling it a white privilege as though it's a status granted by decree to an elite few is both wrong and devisive.
Understood. I disagree. The concept is accurate for what it describes regardless of some personal feelings on the word privilege. Is it divisive? Only if one seeks to deny the reality it represents.
it's not a privilege to achieve a right, it's what should be expected of all.
Not about rights, Tangle. This is about opportunity and quality of life.
But a good point. We can hardly undo a privilege-segmented society when there are disparities in rights. Rights must be recognized, granted and assured. But even then the opportunities to exercise those rights in full cannot be achieved in a society where privilege exists. The rights side is coming along ... slowly ... but moving. We haven't even begun to address the privilege side of this equation.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Tangle, posted 08-20-2015 2:04 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Tangle, posted 08-21-2015 3:58 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8561
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 90 of 276 (766825)
08-22-2015 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Tangle
08-22-2015 8:13 AM


Re: some privilege
But calling all whites privileged is dumb...
The whole situation is dumb (read: human).
But the fact on the ground is that whites are privileged in our white society.
Whites, on average, have better access to, and opportunities for, the benefits of society. You may argue the semantics of calling that "privilege" but that is not going to change the facts.
"Privilege" may hold a negative connotation for you personally. What word would you use instead?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Tangle, posted 08-22-2015 8:13 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Tangle, posted 08-22-2015 2:03 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8561
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 95 of 276 (766860)
08-22-2015 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Tangle
08-22-2015 2:03 PM


Re: some privilege
Whites are not privileged. Some whites enjoy the rights that all people are supposed to have.
No, Tangle, this is not about rights. Rights are law. We're talking opportunity.
How many corporate CEO's (major corporations 1000+ employees) are there in America and Europe? 30,000 +-? How many of them are non-white? <500.
Why? Has nothing to do with rights. Has everything to do with opportunity.
Whites have the opportunities in white society - systemically. Non-whites, with all the same rights as white citizens, do not get those opportunities, systemically.
That is the benefit, the privilege, of being white in a white society.
The sooner we recognize this issue of privilege the sooner we can start to fix it.
[abe]
This could just go on and on. I've had my say and I don't think anyone will benefit from repeats.
You, at least with me, have the last word here.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Tangle, posted 08-22-2015 2:03 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Tangle, posted 08-22-2015 6:07 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8561
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 107 of 276 (767048)
08-25-2015 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Tanypteryx
08-25-2015 1:28 PM


Re: Girl Power
I grumbled the whole time as I washed my own windows.
No, don't grumble, Tany. You're watching a fascinating display of nature in action in the wild. I would have squeegeed my windshield with a slight smile on my face watching this scene. I probably would have gone on to do the back window as well just to see the extended version of this play.
I'd bet that if this were three dragonflies darting around a cute red-haired damselfly you would have been fascinated.(I know, I know. I just couldn't pass up the joke.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-25-2015 1:28 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8561
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 122 of 276 (767164)
08-26-2015 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Phat
08-26-2015 10:08 AM


Re: are we having a misunderstanding?
Is awareness itself the solution? Or...are other measures needed....and if so, how would they be implemented?
From my Message 30 above, with emphasis:
quote:
You have no excuse for being unaware. Blacks, Hispanics, women have been screaming for decades about the subtle institutional inequities in this white-man's world. This is yet another call for you to FIND OUT! Unintentional bigotry, closeted unacknowledged racism, just continues the suffering in all of society.
If you remain unaware then you cannot help change the society through your vote, your conversations, your blog. If you do not stop, look and listen, if you do not learn, if you do not become aware, then you perpetuate the injustice. You are the oppressor whether it's active or not, whether you know it or not. We all are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Phat, posted 08-26-2015 10:08 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by xongsmith, posted 08-26-2015 3:31 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024