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Author Topic:   What is Christianity?
Phat
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Posts: 18345
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 206 of 451 (760836)
06-26-2015 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by Jon
06-26-2015 7:15 AM


Re: still trying to define what Christianity is.
Basically JW's believe that Jesus Christ was the first created being and messenger/mediator. The mainline clubs of Christianity believe that Jesus was in the beginning--a bit of splitting hairs, I suppose. If the Creator of all seen and unseen foreknew that He would be made man at some point, the idea that His thought was a creation or was simply part of Him(Trinitarian) can be discussed. Based on that idea, that GODs thoughts are Him, all of creation was in the beginning. If an artist creates a painting, the painting is an idea (or creation) of the artist. IF, however, the artist always had the idea, the painting could almost be said to have been a part of the artists mind from the beginning.
Not sure if im making any sense.... perhaps the issue is whether Christ is to be venerated and worshipped on a level the same as Jehovah.

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18345
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 229 of 451 (761094)
06-28-2015 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by ringo
05-27-2015 3:39 PM


Re: Kudos to all
Phat writes:
Does a person have to know God in order to love God?
ringo writes:
That depends on what you mean by "knowing" God. Do you have to know that His name is Jehovah? Do you have to know that He has a son named Jesus?
In my opinion, it is important to believe that Jesus is alive--today--in Spirit and Body. Where is His body, one may ask...We are the Body of Christ and He is the Head of this Body.
Is it possible to "know" Shakespeare five hundred years after he died?
Not in the same way that I know Jesus. Jesus is alive and Shakespeare is dead, though his writings are basically preserved forever as a legacy and "creation" of Shakespeares.
By his works ye shall know him.
Know whom? Jesus or the particular member of His Body?

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 05-27-2015 3:39 PM ringo has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18345
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 230 of 451 (761095)
06-28-2015 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by nwr
05-27-2015 4:51 PM


Re: Christianity -- a society of pious hypocrites
nwr writes:
What is Christianity?
It's a society of pious hypocrites.
Over the last few years, we have heard a continual stream of accusations that gay marriage will encourage child molesters.
As jar has pointed out, each club usually has a different definition of what being a Christian means. Each club will try and support its beliefs by quoting from the same book.
In the end, its all a matter of individual opinion/belief as well as group consensus---in practicality---yet some clubs will also say that its a non negotiable reality of Gods Word.
To be attracted to the same gender is a definite inborn trait of some individuals. What one does with that attraction is the responsibility of the individual. My club believes that nobody is born gay or straight...we are born male and female. Its semantics---the definition of words.
Edited by Phat, : clarification

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by nwr, posted 05-27-2015 4:51 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18345
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 239 of 451 (761170)
06-29-2015 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by Rocky.C
06-29-2015 10:41 AM


One Mans Argument For Meaning Of Spirit
So if I get what you mean, you argue that God is Spirit, Jesus has Spirit and that the Spirit is the active force of God. Correct?
Edited by Phat, : clarified post

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Rocky.C, posted 06-29-2015 10:41 AM Rocky.C has not replied

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 Message 240 by jar, posted 06-29-2015 11:25 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18345
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 241 of 451 (761176)
06-29-2015 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by jar
06-29-2015 11:25 AM


Re: One Mans Argument For Meaning Of Spirit
It may have meaning to the audience to whom it is being addressed.
  • They prefer source over content.
  • They prefer easy answers over endless questions.
  • They often prefer fantasy over reality, however...so it takes a lot of persuasion to change their beliefs.
    Some clubs check their brains at the door. Others don't find it a problem to not know God. They must figure if She wants them, She will find them.

    God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 240 by jar, posted 06-29-2015 11:25 AM jar has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18345
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 244 of 451 (761229)
    06-29-2015 5:45 PM
    Reply to: Message 243 by ramoss
    06-29-2015 3:03 PM


    Re: US Christianity is too often just a Constitutionally protected con
    True. Or maybe God really does exist. I dont see how we could even have Christianity without Him.

    God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

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     Message 243 by ramoss, posted 06-29-2015 3:03 PM ramoss has not replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18345
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 246 of 451 (761231)
    06-29-2015 6:17 PM
    Reply to: Message 245 by jar
    06-29-2015 5:58 PM


    Christianity As A Profession
    jar writes:
    Why do you think Christianity could not exist if there was no God?
    Good point. I suppose I'll concede that even if Jesus was simply a myth told around a campfire we could still be Christians...
    Superman was a myth. A story told by an author. Little kids love putting on capes and having big colorful S's on their shirts. They imitate their hero.
    I suppose we could do the same with Jesus. Understand, however, that much of my belief depends on Him being alive. I know I'm not a kid anymore...so I dont expect instant magic, however.

    God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 245 by jar, posted 06-29-2015 5:58 PM jar has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18345
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 250 of 451 (761282)
    06-30-2015 12:08 PM
    Reply to: Message 245 by jar
    06-29-2015 5:58 PM


    Re: US Christianity is too often just a Constitutionally protected con
    jar writes:
    Why do you think Christianity could not exist if there was no God?
    Even though I already answered this, I'll say that in my belief if there was no God, there would be nothing. God is the Creator.

    God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 245 by jar, posted 06-29-2015 5:58 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 251 by jar, posted 06-30-2015 1:41 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18345
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 252 of 451 (761314)
    06-30-2015 1:58 PM
    Reply to: Message 251 by jar
    06-30-2015 1:41 PM


    Re: US Christianity is too often just a Constitutionally protected con
    Im still not convinced that I created Him. In my opinion and belief, He created me...and everything...long before we humans even had the capability to create Him.
    Of course to prove this to your satisfaction may well be difficult if not impossible.
    You will likely say that GOD is unknowable, while God is a human construct.
    Asa Creedal Christian, how do you reconcile Jesus BEFORE He was made man? Your answer to that may well be similar to my conclusions regarding God as a creation of humanity and God Who always was,Is, and shall forever be.

    God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 251 by jar, posted 06-30-2015 1:41 PM jar has replied

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     Message 253 by jar, posted 06-30-2015 2:04 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18345
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 256 of 451 (761395)
    07-01-2015 6:19 AM
    Reply to: Message 253 by jar
    06-30-2015 2:04 PM


    God is NOT a product of my imagination
    Yet all of the evidence says otherwise.
    Subjectively? No. I know you are a man of logic, reason, and reality. You often complain about Christians who refuse to take personal responsibility in life and who expect God to do everything to fix and/or cover up their mistakes. It may be that you view the CCoI as willfully ignorant and biased towards a fantasy...based on the God they create. The fact of the matter is, however, that we believe that God is alive. Now. We believe that we can talk with Him anytime and that He listens. We believe that He talks with us many ways. Through our conscience. Through our deep down awareness of the difference between right and wrong.
    Phat,to jar writes:
    Asa Creedal Christian, how do you reconcile Jesus BEFORE He was made man?
    jar writes:
    I don't. I can't.
    You likely will say that it is because you are honest and never have any evidence that GOD (or Jesus) speaks to you.
    I appreciate your honesty. We have discussed a time or two how many Christians are dishonest in these matters, claiming, perhaps that GOD told them something or the other when the facts would show that no external voice was ever heard.
    In addition, you would probably be very wary of listening to or obeying inner voices. This too is wise. Many people are in prison for listening to an inner voice---telling them to kill their child, perhaps...or other outlandish delusions.
    jar writes:
    I am as clueless about that as everyone else who is not creating gods.
    Personally, when I pray and/or talk with God, I am aware of the seeming illogic voiced by others regarding my sanity. I also am aware of what it is I believe. Assuming my own sanity, I pray and believe that He listens, counsels and advises me. I am still responsible for what I DO, however. Each day is a new lesson.
    In summation, I believe that God is NOT a product of my imagination, but I readily admit that I cannot explain or prove why this is so except through how I live and relate to others. My actions are all the evidence I can provide.

    God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 253 by jar, posted 06-30-2015 2:04 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18345
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 258 of 451 (761529)
    07-02-2015 1:18 PM
    Reply to: Message 257 by ringo
    07-02-2015 1:04 PM


    Re: God is NOT a product of my imagination
    You know what I mean. He imagined/created us long before we even evolved enough to make him up.
    I never understood why you rejected the concept. I suppose it really doesnt matter. You try and do your best and help people and do everything you are supposed to do...
    I certainly disagree with GIA regarding gnostic christianity---at least as he sees it. And you claim atheism though given your family history, your sense of humor and your overall positive online personality I see no reason why He isnt using you in some manner. (despite your preference to simply be left alone)

    God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 257 by ringo, posted 07-02-2015 1:04 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 259 by ringo, posted 07-02-2015 1:26 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18345
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 262 of 451 (765725)
    08-05-2015 2:47 AM
    Reply to: Message 259 by ringo
    07-02-2015 1:26 PM


    Re: God is NOT a product of my imagination
    ringo writes:
    I don't think the tendency to believe in gods is inherent in humans.
    I agree...especially in modern culture. I knew about God (the mythos) for many years. I never planned on actual belief...being as important as it now is in my life.
    Somebody makes up a god and convinces others to believe in it.
    IIRC, nobody convinced me to believe. It was that one day I was changed.
    What convinced me was that the feeling was just as strong the next morning...long after I should have forgotten about it.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 259 by ringo, posted 07-02-2015 1:26 PM ringo has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18345
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 269 of 451 (765824)
    08-06-2015 4:49 PM
    Reply to: Message 265 by ringo
    08-05-2015 3:08 PM


    God preferences
    Ringo writes:
    If you hadn't known about the mythos, would you have thought of it by yourself?
    No way to know.
    Do you think it's just coincidence that you happen to live in a Christian culture and you happen to believe in the Christian God?
    If we had access to the statistics of percentages of people from other cultures 'converting" to another religion, I could tell you more.
    I'd be impressed if God was communing with you and telling you his prophet was Mohammed.
    Whats so unimpressive about Jesus? As a sidenote...I expect that the name of Jesus is more widely hated than the name of Mohammed.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 265 by ringo, posted 08-05-2015 3:08 PM ringo has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18345
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 271 of 451 (765838)
    08-06-2015 8:21 PM
    Reply to: Message 108 by ringo
    06-22-2015 12:11 PM


    Re: So yet another definition tossed out for consideration
    ringo writes:
    I seem to recall iano saying that the best place to learn "the gospel" is in Romans.
    Yeah, they(the typical mainline protestant churches) taught us the "Romans Road" to salvation.
    Got Questions.org writes:
    The Romans Road to salvation is a way of explaining the good news of salvation using verses from the Book of Romans. It is a simple yet powerful method of explaining why we need salvation, how God provided salvation, how we can receive salvation, and what are the results of salvation.
    The first verse on the Romans Road to salvation is Romans 3:23, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." We have all sinned. We have all done things that are displeasing to God. There is no one who is innocent. Romans 3:10-18 gives a detailed picture of what sin looks like in our lives. The second Scripture on the Romans Road to salvation, Romans 6:23, teaches us about the consequences of sin - "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." The punishment that we have earned for our sins is death. Not just physical death, but eternal death!
    The third verse on the Romans Road to salvation picks up where Romans 6:23 left off, "but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 5:8 declares, "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Jesus Christ died for us! Jesus' death paid for the price of our sins. Jesus' resurrection proves that God accepted Jesus' death as the payment for our sins.
    The fourth stop on the Romans Road to salvation is Romans 10:9, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Because of Jesus' death on our behalf, all we have to do is believe in Him, trusting His death as the payment for our sins - and we will be saved! Romans 10:13 says it again, "for everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sins and rescue us from eternal death. Salvation, the forgiveness of sins, is available to anyone who will trust in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.
    The final aspect of the Romans Road to salvation is the results of salvation. Romans 5:1 has this wonderful message, "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Through Jesus Christ we can have a relationship of peace with God. Romans 8:1 teaches us, "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." Because of Jesus' death on our behalf, we will never be condemned for our sins. Finally, we have this precious promise of God from Romans 8:38-39, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
    Of course, with all this distracted talk about latter day "franchise builders" and all of the antagonistic sentiment against the NT, the first issue is simply one of faith.
    In response to the questions of "How do you know its...." the answer is always "By Faith".
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 108 by ringo, posted 06-22-2015 12:11 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 273 by ringo, posted 08-07-2015 11:55 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18345
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 274 of 451 (766417)
    08-18-2015 12:43 AM
    Reply to: Message 273 by ringo
    08-07-2015 11:55 AM


    Its Not What You Do. Its Who He Is
    ringo writes:
    I've said it before and I'll say it again: I respect the New Testament more than you do. That's why I look for the gospel in the gospels instead of in Paul's commentary on the gospels.
    Paul's words are as inspired as Jesus words.
    One way to get an idea of what Christianity is is to go back in time and take examples from some respected Theologians of the past.
    One of the best was a man named Oswald Chambers.
    Chambers had a strong belief well founded on scripture.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 273 by ringo, posted 08-07-2015 11:55 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 276 by ringo, posted 08-18-2015 12:07 PM Phat has replied

      
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